HELP!! GEAR/Bearing Noise/vibration with brake shudder at stop.

[Concrete Solutions]

HELP!! GEAR/Bearing Noise/vibration with brake shudder at stop.



I hope you can help me diagnose the problem with my truck,

Or help me to look in the right places.



The truck particulars are: build date June 03 6sp 4X4 3500 SRW

HO, ST w/manual T-case, 72,000 miles Bradford flatbed (1000 lbs)

So. West Fab. Front bumper 275 lbs (?) Stock size tires Cooper ST.

Anti spin rear 373 gearing. I can’t think of anything else relevant.





My road, 4 miles in and out to the hiway is sometimes muddy

or slick so 4x4 is engaged both in and out daily, mostly anyway.





The sudden onset of the vibration/noise rather scares me as well as the brake shudder.

Notice it waited till right after 70,000.



The noise is rather like a pulsed zzzz zzzz zzzz zzzz zzzz and worse on deceleration

than acceleration. Almost feels like the ring gear/pinion when you let off the fuel.

It seems worse when cold and is speed dependant not engine speed related clutch in or out.

The worst speeds are 65>40 mph. ;



I CANNOT determine front or rear, ( I’m high freq deaf which doesn’t help)

I don’t feel it in the gear shift or T-Case lever

I can barely feel it in the steering wheel while lightly holding with 2 fingers

But I hear it and feel it none the less.



There is a pronounced shudder when applying the brake the worst speeds

Are 40>10 or maybe less. Not the ABS (it was slick yesterday and the ABS

Actuated and it is a very fast buzz) this is more like if you hold your tongue

to the roof of your mouth and exhale though your mouth.



Pads and rotors “Look” fine as best as I can tell at least 30+ % or more pad,

No scoring or nasties on the rotors that I can see.



I checked the diff fluids and their fine I would have checked the transmission but

don’t have the plug tool I’ll get one and change all the fluids in the truck.

I’ve spent time on bob is the oil guy site and know what fluids to get.



I spent over 15. 00 at the car wash washing off the accumulated mud

Off of underside of the truck to see better (the mud was pre-existing

By a long time prior to the sudden onset but the truck seemed

Much better on the way home but the problem re-manifested

Itself the next day. While hauling 1400lbs of hay home (return trip)

It was much less noticeable with the weight on the truck I think it was

still there though. I was driving very carefully with the big round bale

so couldn’t tell much.



Ive read lots of posts on front hubs, u joints, ball joints, etc…….





I jacked up the truck and spun the wheels, looked as much as possible

Reefed on the front wheels to sort of check ball joints. Looked at the u

Joints, mostly just looked but was on gravel so didn’t get too carried away

The tires were left on as I’m short on good surfaces to work on as well

As time and the tools I want for this type work.



I plan on getting all new u joints, ball joints, and I’m worried about the

Front hubs now. But this takes time and money both of which I’m short of, as well

As a turn in the weather to sub 0 temps.



I had planned to drive it Cheyenne this week or next to meet a fellow TDR

Member and pick up a set of Rickson wheels, but is 250 miles each way

With some pretty lonely territory on the way with a leaving and then returning

in the dark. 500 miles round trip. And this has got me spooked and cash poor.

I do not own an alternative vehicle suitable for this trip and I don’t want to get stranded

100 miles from any town with a 400. 00 tow to nowhere.



I need some suggestions or solutions to help figure this out so my confidence

Is restored in my wonderful Cummins workhorse. BTW im 75 miles from any

Dealer not that I would take it there anyway. And don’t know of shop I’d trust

With my baby and wallet.





HELP



Rich

 

[tpicard]

Check your rear u-joints, that is what my truck did when they where going out. I couldn't get any play out of them but eventully they showed some rust around the cap seals. Something to check and if you have not changed them yet they are probable due. T

 

[DPKetchum]

Sounds like a u/joint seizing.

 

[Task125]

I would check U joints,just had to change mine again :{

 

[Concrete Solutions]

6 Spd. U Joint part numbers... .



Rear driveshaft 2 Piece precision (takes 3) Precision #351

Front driveshaft Cardan H joint (takes 2) Precision #232

Front driveshaft @ front axle (takes 1) Precision #235

Front Axle U joints LEFT AND RIGHT (takes 2) #464



These are the U joint part #s I have been able to come up with

off this site.



Is there a particular joint that keeps going bad and should get a spare

of so I don't have to reorder it in 6 months?



Thank-You Rich

 

[rbattelle]

I agree with everyone else about the u-joint probability.



You don't mention if it's a LWB. If it is, check the carrier bearing, too.



-Ryan

 

[Cattletrkr]

You may have "lubricated" a u-joint when you washed the truck. That might be why it seemed better on the way home. I had a front joint bind up that was better when it rained.

 

[Concrete Solutions]

Yup!! middle u joint siezed up, rear joint tight, the shaft just hung off the

center bearing the joint was so tight! but ya couldn't tell by looking at the

in place shaft.

Ordered all the u-joints for the truck from rock auto.



Went to pull the front shaft but don't have the right torx size

for the front axel ?????



What Size torx is it 40 0r 45 ???



Thanks again

Rich

 

[rbattelle]

T40. You may need/want a long-reach (5") torx bit.



-Ryan

 

[tpicard]

Good news its only a sheep hang out! You shouldn't need any spares as long as you install greaseable joints and keep them serviced, just lube them when you change oil and you should be fine.

 

[Concrete Solutions]

T40. You may need/want a long-reach (5") torx bit.



-Ryan

Well you can safely Remove the Want part, Its a gotta have!



Went to town to get the T-40, well guess what, no long ones

so I took home a short one and since its a 3/8 drive its a no go.

I took loose the t case side, which was a pain as I had to use

a box end wrench but fortunately I had a 6 point 5/8" which fit

fine, Must be 16 mm the one I don't have in metric



No matter how I moved the shaft there was no way to

get the torx on with the 3/8 drive. T-30 is the largest

available in 1/4 drive. the parts guy looked though all

books to find a long reach but came up dry. He really made an effort

but none to be had. Is this a special dash 7 type tool ?



I am thinking of getting one of those little 1/4 bits and

adapting or welding it to an extension.



What do youall use???



I suppose your thinking what an idiot, can't even pull

a shaft out. :-laf



Thanks



Rich

 

[rbattelle]

Thanks to HOBrian I bought a 5" T-40 from McMaster back a couple months ago in anticipation of someday doing this job. I found there was absolutely no way to get a normal one in, but I figured there must be some way because no one except me and HOBrian ever said a word about it.



Now there are 3 of us out there who require a long-reach T-40.



-Ryan

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Guess I'll order one of those in anticipation! Thanks for the heads up.



Jeff

 

[LHolland]

Rich,

I have the exact same syptoms you just listed. I took it in to the dealer to have them check it out. My truck hd only 24k miles. They could not find the problem at first. they had me bring it back when they had a field service technician in. They hooked up a vibration monitor and concluded it was the tires. I did'nt believe them because the wear was too even and they had more than 2/3rd's the tread left.

I contacted BFG and they told me to have it checked at one of the shops they recommended. I took it to Discount Tire and they did a load/road match test on each tire, $12. 00ea. They found the two left tires were really out and the right ones were failing. During the test they take the tires that are out of round/heavy on oneside and rotate it on the rim and re balance them. I've noticed some improvment in them but still have considerable noise.

I am getting my tires replaced on a prorated basis next week. I hope this helps and it may be worth considering.

 

[Concrete Solutions]

Oh CRAP



The 232 ujoints are WRONG the caps are too big!!



DOES any one KNOW the correct size ujoints for the cardan H joint?

 

[rbattelle]

I thought it was 464, but that might be the front axles.



-Ryan

 

[CumminSense]

1) rbattelle, make that at least 4 of us that have determined that you MUST have the long (about 5" shaft) torx to get at the bolts on the front of the front driveshaft



2) Precision 464 is for the half shafts. Note that Rock Auto has 464 listed for the double Kardan (H joint), but that is WRONG, I just learned the hard way. I will have to call Rock Auto tomorrow to get the right part #, as this was listed wrong in their online catalog. Mine is 2004. 5 6-spd 4x4



3) concrete, I have the exact same symptoms. (I know it's been 1 - 2 years since your post. ) I replaced the 3 rear U joints, solved launch shudder vib, but not what is left -- I think is in the front end. I removed the front propeller shaft, and it did not solve. I especially feel this about 65mph down to about 20mph, esp. decelerating, clutch in or out, in in gear, in neutral, doesn't matter. I even got on straight lonely road and shut off the engine while rolling to be sure it wasn't engine related, vib still there.



While under there I noticed a slow leak at seal at rear of front diff. I had dealer fix that (under warranty), but service manager (who I at least partly trust, been there for years and always treated me well in the past with several cars), said the pinion (or rear?) diff bearing felt fine, not loose. So I'm still stymied. I now suspect the half shaft bearings or hubs.



Really starting to tick me off that all of this front-end drive equipment is spinning every mile on the road, when only needed (for me at least) 5 - 10% of the time. I'd put in the locking hubs if they weren't $1800 for the kit.



-- Steve

 

[rbattelle]

2) Precision 464 is for the half shafts. Note that Rock Auto has 464 listed for the double Kardan (H joint), but that is WRONG, I just learned the hard way. I will have to call Rock Auto tomorrow to get the right part #, as this was listed wrong in their online catalog.

Precision 235 is the correct number for the driveshaft. I bought the "Tough Joints", which have the grease fittings in the caps (stronger that way). It's VERY easy to get confused reading the parts descriptions from the catalog.

Really starting to tick me off that all of this front-end drive equipment is spinning every mile on the road, when only needed (for me at least) 5 - 10% of the time. I'd put in the locking hubs if they weren't $1800 for the kit.

Well, I do think there's some merit in turning that stuff all the time - keeps it lubricated and free. Sometimes vehicles with freewheeling hubs that don't get the front end "exercised" periodically have very short component life relative to the number of miles used. I've always chalked that up to "not enough exercise".

If you think about it, these trucks without lockouts are more like vocational trucks (cement mixers, logging trucks, mining trucks, etc). Those monsters never have lockouts. I think there might be 2 reasons for this: 1) there's no lockouts strong enough, and 2) the lockout adds a lot of parts to the system that are merely extra maintenance items.

I guess my point is, a lot of people really hate the lack of lockouts, but it's not unheard of on the heavier-duty stuff.

I'm in the extreme minority - I actually like the factory system. I like it for its simplicity (which I generally measure by part count). I just hate the lack of a grease fitting and anti-seize lubricant.

That's why I debate about entering the Dynatrac contest for worst "tale of woe" for hub/bearing assemblies. If I won, I'm not sure I'd want to install their kit. I think it's a fine bit of engineering they've done, I'm just not sure it's for me.

Ryan

 

[JApol]

1) I replaced the 3 rear U joints, solved launch shudder vib, but not what is left -- I think is in the front end. I removed the front propeller shaft, and it did not solve. I especially feel this about 65mph down to about 20mph, esp. decelerating, clutch in or out, in in gear, in neutral, doesn't matter. I even got on straight lonely road and shut off the engine while rolling to be sure it wasn't engine related, vib still there.

I had the same vibration and took my truck and tools to a drive line shop, took out the shaft and had them balance it. The run-out before balance was ~. 20 after balance it was ~ . 02. It made a world of difference in the vibrations.