Archived Help. Hard Start, then No Start, Injector Pump?

[Sean Flanagan]

It's been a while since I posted anything on this board. The old truck has just been humming along without any problems. Rung good, pulls like an elephant. reliable, dependable, 270k miles... until now!



All winter, only on warm days, the truck has been hard to start. Have to crank for 10-20 seconds. On cold days, it starts right up. Fuel Pressure is 11-14psi.



Yesterday, while driving, it surged, sputtered, and the tach went to zero, and the "Check Engine" light came on. The engine kept running is a "limp" mode, for long enough to get me home. All during this time the fuel pressure was still good 11-14 psi.



When I pulled into the driveway, I shut it down, then tried to re-start. No Go. The engine just turns and turns and does not fire.



No comes the strange part. The fuel pressure is zero. The lift pump does not run when you bump the starter, like it normally does. So, I pulled the lift pump, set it on the bench, and hooked it to a battery charger, and it humms like normal. I re-installed it, without hooking it to wire the harness, but instead connecting it directly to the battery, and it runs fine and produces 14 psi of fuel pressure. It's like the engine computer doesn't want to run the lift pump. But, with the lift pump running full blast in this hotwired way, the engine still won't start. I loosened the injector lines for cylinders 3 and 4 and no fuel comes out, not even a drop.



It appears to me that the injector pump died after a long life of 270k miles. It is strange that the engine computer would not try and run the lift pump. If I unplug the engine computer fuse and reconnect, the lift pump does come on for a few seconds but never again until I unplug the fuse and re-plug. Is the computer doing this to prevent a runaway condition?



Before I make that substantial invenstment of an injector pump, I was hoping that somebody could confirm my guesses. I don't have the trouble codes yet. I have to borrow a scan tool. The 98. 5 does not put the codes in the odometer.



Any help or advise is greatly appreciated.



Sean

 

[JoshPeters]

Sounds like your crankshaft position sensor has failed. Without that it doesn't know when to fire the injection pump/injectors. I"d borrow that scan tool and see what the codes are.



JP

 

[Sean Flanagan]

Where is the Crank Position Sensor located?



Thanks,

 

[p-Bar]

just behind the harmonic balancer. You will see two wires coming off of it. Use a thread lock on the threads when you install the new one.

 

[Bob4x4]

just behind the harmonic balancer. You will see two wires coming off of it. Use a thread lock on the threads when you install the new one.

Nope,it is behind the starter on 98. 5.



Bob

 

[p-Bar]

Guess I better stick with the 3rd genners. Thanks for bailling me out Bob

 

[Bob4x4]

I have pulled way to many starters to change that sensor,so far I have not had any 3rd gens go bad. But have seen a lot of codes for them due to add on boxes.



Bob

 

[Sean Flanagan]

Checked the codes and this is what came up.



P0336 = Crankshift position sensor A Circuit Range / Performance

P1693 = Diagnostic trouble code detected in PCM and ECM



It looks like I'm heading to Cummins or the Dealer to get a crank position sensor. Way cheaper than the injector pump. Too bad removing the starter is required. It's kind of ickey gooey and greasy under there. 270k miles of oil leaks and crud.



Does the 1693 code indicate anything significant?



Thanks for your help,



I'll let you know what happens.



Sean

 

[Sean Flanagan]

OK, I replaced the sensor. The truck now starts but the tach works for about 10 seconds and then drops to zero, then the check engine light comes back on with the same codes. At least now the engine runs, but in limp mode. If I clear the codes and restart the same thing happens.



Here is something else that might be important. When I uplled the crank sensor, the end of it was DAMAGED. Part of the plastic tip is broken off and you can see sensor innards. A chunk about the size of a pea is missing from the end of the sensor. What could have caused this?



It is possible that I damaged the trying to get it out... I did not pry it with a tool, I pulled and twisted using my fingers. It didn't seem like enough force to break it.



I am worried about the plastic bits of the sensor and where they are going to go. Does the sensor go through into the crank case and read off of something directly on the crank? If so, hopefully, the bits will just fall to the bottom of the pan and not make it through the oil pump screen.



What do you all think I should try next...



Thank you very much for you help,



Sean

 

[Bob4x4]

The sensor runs off a tone wheel on the crank,I have heard a couple of cases where it was loose on the crank and would hit the sensor. (it is supposed to be a bolt on)There are also cases where you have an intermittant open in the crank sensor ckt to trip the code.



Bob

 

[wtfd6]

I had this happen to me. the crank sensor tone ring comes loose and breaks off. no easy fix. unless it is still intact. you will have to pull the pan to service this part. if it is broken, it is a pain in the butt. it cost me about $200 in parts. all from dodge. the ring comes off in two pieces. one is like a C shape and the other fills in the gap. in order to get it into place without pulling the crankshaft(which requires all kinds of work) you will have to unbolt the number 6 main cap and pull out the thrust bearing. and unbolt the number 6(I think) rod and push piston all the way up. the crank needs to be in a certain position. it took me a while of trial and error to get it to "pop" in. it has been a while since I had to do this. if you have any questions just drop me a pm.

Mark

p. s. I hope you dont have to go thru all of this!

 

[Sean Flanagan]

Oh great. Is there a way I can check the tone wheel without dropping the pan? Can you see it from the hole the crank sensor goes in? Dropping the pan is a b**ch! I did it once to replace the pan gasket when I had the transmission out for a new clutch. Pan still leaks anyway...



I really don't want to or have the time to go through this again with my limited tools and outdoor, as in driveway, shop. I have to leave the country this Sunday for a couple of weeks and it would be a good opportunity to have somebody else do my dirty work. Anybody know a reputable shop in the Denver area that is reliable, and not charge an arm and a leg?



Thanks for the help,



Sean

 

[wtfd6]

I used a borescope to check mine. it was fairly simple since there wasnt one. I wish I could help with shops, but its a long way away from me.

Mark

 

[DieselLady]

Oh great. Is there a way I can check the tone wheel without dropping the pan? Can you see it from the hole the crank sensor goes in? Dropping the pan is a b**ch! I did it once to replace the pan gasket when I had the transmission out for a new clutch. Pan still leaks anyway...



I really don't want to or have the time to go through this again with my limited tools and outdoor, as in driveway, shop. I have to leave the country this Sunday for a couple of weeks and it would be a good opportunity to have somebody else do my dirty work. Anybody know a reputable shop in the Denver area that is reliable, and not charge an arm and a leg?



Thanks for the help,



Sean

Well ATS Diesel would be my first and only choice. They only work on diesel pickups and they have great service and do it right.

 

[Sean Flanagan]

Well, the saga of the crank sensor continues... but gets worse, way worse. :{



I borrowed a bore-scope from somebody and took a peek into the innards through the hole where the crank sensor goes. No tone wheel! I turn the engine a bit and, wait, there it is! Oh no! What is there has missing teeth. It looks like the large section fell off. A full 270 degrees are missing, which makes sense considering that the thing comes in 2 sections, a 270 degree part and a 90 degree part.



It gets worse, if you can believe it. While I am lying under there, I notice more leaking oil than normal on the pasenger side of the engine. I take a peek. Yikes! a crack in the side of the block, just opposite the crankshaft tone wheel. Apparently, the casting is pushed out from when the tone wheel let loose and probably got a wedgie against the inside of the block.



No cursing, just sadness and disappointment...



I have attached a picture of the crack...



Is this worth fixing? Can I get this welded and then replace the tone wheel. Is it time for the glue factory? Should I JB weld it and dump it as is? I can't afford a new or even good used truck.

 

[wtfd6]

oh man that sucks! I must have gotten lucky. it just dented the pan. it the crack isnt too large, I would just jb weld it, put a new tone ring in and hope for the best. sorry to hear of your problem. I remember how I felt when mine went.

 

[DieselLady]

Dang, that's the pits.

Some one has developed a stitch patch for the 053 block that cracks along the top of the passanger side block. I wonder if the same patch would work for your crack. seems like it would be weldable. Good luck to you. there should be plenty of life left in that motor. :{

 

[Sean Flanagan]

Well, I fixed it, Good as a brand new truck. Total repair cost, 30 grand!



I traded it in on a brand new truck. The dealer checked it out, as is, and I still got a new 07 SLT 4x4 Quad Long Bed out the door for $30k + Tax.



I feel like a criminal trading it. I probably am... They did look at it, the check engine light was still on and the tach did not work. They even took it for a test drive. They had every chance to connect it to a scan tool. I even told them that it was old, had a few problems, and the Check engine light was on (which I'm not sure they even noticed).



I could never sell this thing to somebody outright. The only thing I could do was trade it. And I feel terrible about it. (should I?) It will just get wholesaled and the dealer will probably do ok. It will be 2-3 hands removed before anybody finds the big problem. I feel sorry for whoever ends up with it.



It also feels like I lost an old friend. A friend that faithfully and reliably served me for 9 years and 270k miles.



Now I have a brand new friend, and it sure is nice, very nice. Now I am officially a 3rd genner! I guess I have to change my sig.



Thanks for all of your help,



Sean

 

[Bob4x4]

Congrats on the repair



Bob