Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Help! I got beat by a Phord!

[pwerwagn]

My brother in law recently bought a 1997 3/4 ton 4wheel drive 4-door phord with a 460. It is an auto and has 4. 10's in it. It has a K&N FIPK, MSD ignition parts, and headers/exhaust. Saturday night we came to a light next to each other and went for it. I started in 1st, because with the 3. 55's the clutch wont hold in second. as soon as I shifted to second, he pulled about half a truck length. My second to third sucks because the 3rd syncro grinds pretty bad, so he gained about a whole length in 3rd. So going into that killer 4th gear gear gap he was already almost 2 lengths ahead, and he ended up probably 3 lengths ahead when I startd to really pull 4th. I finally reeled him in and passed him, at about 65-70mph (4ht upshift). Is it possible to hang with an auto off the line when starting in 1st? Will a scottyII/#10 or 11/3kgsk close the gap? What should my stock 98 run in the 1/4 mile at ~5000' altitude?

thanks guys.

 

[mikel]

I'd be real surprised if you could hang with an auto starting in first, you'll just run out of RPM too soon.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

call Peter at South Bend Clutch... get a plate, some 370's, and a GSK.



and no, it's not possible to hang w/ an auto off the line starting in first... I hardly ever use 1st gear, and CERTAINLY not when I'm trying to accelerate quickly. it's just way too short.



Forrest

 

[pwerwagn]

...

So you guys can start in second with no problem? It is not too high of a gear, even with a tall tire like a 305/70/16? Ok, so If i do the clutch/inj/plate/springs could I possibly hang with an auto? Do any of you guys have "examples" of your 60-foot times at the strip with a 5-speed?

thanks again.

 

[DJb]

I finally reeled him in and passed him, at about 65-70mph (4ht upshift).



IMO, you beat him! If you want to race, auto's seem to be the way to go. Also, imo, he lost without even racing you... . he's got a Ford lol. If I stall up on the brake, all mine does is blow the tires off, so I have to leave at an idel and it still spins some but at least it moves forward. Can only imagine what mine would do if it had some tires on the rear that would get traction off the brake. It's excellent for a smoke show tho lol.

 

[JGheen]

So you guys can start in second with no problem? It is not too high of a gear, even with a tall tire like a 305/70/16? QUOTE]



I am running 37" SSRs and have no issues starting in second or for that matter racing an auto starting in second. I highly doubt your clutch will not hold if you are starting in second. You can always get a good launch in 1st but you run out of revs way too fast. You may start a bit slow in second but when it spools up and kicks in, you'll be a lot closer to a win at the end than if you started in 1st.

 

[pwerwagn]

...

I guess I did beat him. But still, most people stop after they get 3 lengths ahead of you! I have tried to start in second, my clutch wont take it. All it does is smoke . I pull a 8-10K trailer and I cant even start in second when pulling that. Any 60-foot times?

 

[JGheen]

I have tried to start in second, my clutch wont take it. All it does is smoke . I pull a 8-10K trailer and I cant even start in second when pulling that.

Well, you weren't pulling a trailer when you were racing that Furd, were ya? Your always supposed to start out in first when pulling a load, unless you have lower gears than 4. 10s.

What smokes when you start out in second, the engine or the clutch? Are you hearing a grinding noise when you let out in second from a dead stop? What makes you think that the clutch is slipping in second, cuz if it slipping in second, it's gonna to slip in any gear.

 

[y-knot]

I don't think anyone beat anything, like you said he got you by three lenghts.

You manual trany guy's just don't have a chance aginst the automatic, why do you think most drag cars run auto's? Your freind in his Ford has almost the perfect set-up, big block power, 4:10 gears and a auto, does't get much better then that, for stock trucks. You have such a low 1st gear, it is useless for anything but towing. His auto, has a much higher 1st gear, closer to your 2nd gear. He also has the added torque supplied by the torque converter, it multiplies the engines torque by 40% when un-locked. All of this with the 4:10 gears makes for a very fast truck off the line. You are hopelessly out powered and conmemed to run in the slow lane with your set-up. The low 1st and the slow klunky shifts make your truck seem even slower then it should be, bottom line is your truck was never made to race anything except possablely a motor home. I am sure it can produce great HP and torque, all Cummins engines do, but getting it to the road surface and down the track is another thing. Yes, you can start in 2nd, or even 3rd gear, this will make for a faster start. But it requires you to slip the clutch, long enough to get going and build some speed. Most clutch's do not have the power to stop slipping after that speed has been reached. You will have built-up so much heat, that it can not grab and continue to accelerate your truck. You might get by once or twice, all depends on the age and condition of the clutch you have, but it will take it's toll and it will shorten the life. The heat generate by just one such launch, is more then enough to warp,glaze or ruen a clutch, pressure plate or flywheel. It really isn't worth all the cost, just to say you beat??, a Ford.

 

[KBennett]

I know our trucks are not the same animals(see my signature) but I can eat my friends automatic V10 Ford if I start out in 2nd. If I leave the line from an idle I have half a truck length at 50 but if I leave at 2000 RPM I have a full length on him. If I put my 5K trailer on and he puts his 4K trailer on I can blow past him on the hills like he is sitting still.



This truck is awesome at this altitude Oo.

 

[biggy238]

Lol. I think that 2nd gear would be a wise start. And if a 460 can't outrun a 360 it needs to be taken to the house. Keep trying to outrun him, and if it's brought to attention, point out the 100 Cubic inch difference.

 

[dseabaugh]

Your real problem is that you don't need to out run him, you need to out smoke him. The other day I was towing a trailer with a tractor through town and a mustang decided to pass me on the passenger side. I put my foot in it and the black smoke started rolling. He pulled over on the shoulder to get out of the smoke. Just spin the star wheel forward and everyone pulls back! My wife was with me and haveing a blast watching people get out of the smoke.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Lol. I think that 2nd gear would be a wise start. And if a 460 can't outrun a 360 it needs to be taken to the house. Keep trying to outrun him, and if it's brought to attention, point out the 100 Cubic inch difference.

no way, that's what the little rice boys always talk about... it's run whatcha brung, and if you ain't brung enough, go get some more!



Forrest

 

[DJb]

Well, I could argue about the reasons so many run an auto in a drag car. I've raced 4 speed cars before and did very well..... and perfer a standard over an auto car any day and don't say an auto is more consistent because it ain't true. A good setup with a good driver, a 4 speed setup is just as consistent as any auto car. I know racing with a turbo is different and with an auto, you can build boost at the line where a standard won't but at least with a standard, you can launch at a high rpm or any rpm that will benefit the run... . but I've never raced a vehicle with a turbo so I can't argue the good and bad points about what trans might be best with it... .

 

[Forrest Nearing]

turbo gassers are a pain to get an automatic dialed in with... the biggest problem is the converter... it's gotta be just right or it'll eat up precious ET.



w/ a turbo diesel, an automatic is the only way to go if you're talkin' drag racing, but an old 4x4 crew cab gasser is nothing that "requires" an automatic transmission to beat!



I'm a manual transmission guy till I die, but if I had $5k lying around, I'd get a fully built automatic setup...



Forrest

 

[Hohn]

... I started in 1st, because with the 3. 55's the clutch wont hold in second.

... ... My second to third sucks because the 3rd syncro grinds pretty bad, so he gained about a whole length in 3rd.

Sorry, I just don't see the mystery in why you lost. I don't see many successful stick-shift drag racers with slipping clutches and a transmission that won't shift properly...



jlh

 

[pwerwagn]

never said...

Jlh, I never said I didnt understand why i lost. I dont think it is a mysterey, I understand fully. In fact, I was impressed that I actually caught him! I was just asking the question if I did a little bombing could I expect to close the gap, or could I ever launch well enough to keep up? And yes, If I launch in second, the clutch does slip. It does not grind, It just does not go! If I can get it moving at all, like first does, then I can dump it into second and it hooks. It has never slipped in 3rd, 4th or 5th. I dont pull a trailer from second, just stating that it is high enough in second that it wont really move. I'm with you forrest, run whatcha brung. and besides, even though it is a 360 and his is a 460, his is NA. I think 25 psi and almost double the compression kinda evens out the displacement differences. Not really an argument in my book, apples to oranges. I did beat a 2000 1 ton chevy dually 454 with 410s and an auto in the 1/4. He only ran 18. 83. He did get me off the line though. I used to race a 70 dodge challenger. I knocked off 3 1/10's just by going to a manual. Im a manual guy till I die too. Nobody has 60-foot times for a 5 speed?

 

[chrleb1]

If you want to cut 60 ft times and have a munaul, go to a dual disc clutch. you are able to do a 3rd gear launch and full boost. It is quite fun if you ask me. This mean you don't have to shift until 45 or so. With this you can beat a lot of autos because there converters don't lock-up till after this (unless you have a mystery switch).

 

[Berrigan]

I guess im gettin old. Id never dump my clutch at hi rs to race. Just too much stuff to damage. Your truck seems pretty stock. Is there high miles on the clutch? An auto with low gears will take you out of the hole every time. Your boost is not working yet. What you discribed in the race is what I would have expected. We even loose boost between gears that Auto ctds dont loose. Now put 10k behind you both and hit a grade in 4th and I bet you spank the phord evey time. Sorry I dont have 60 foot times

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I've never dumped the clutch on my truck... I have barked 3rd pretty hard a few times when racing on the street, but never from a dead stop...



I gotta say, watching Jeff Prince come out of the hole in 3rd and seeing those big steamrollers out back beg for mercy and watching the truck just jump up and go definately has me drooling over a dual disk



Forrest