Archived Help! Truck died.

[BLMills]

On the way home from work, cruising at 45mph, Truck sputtered a couple of times then just died. I dead sticked into the local Shamrock here in Falcon, CO. Won't start at all. Bumped the starter and the lift pump is making the normal noise (not sure that indicates it is good). Unfortunately, I didn't learn my lesson the last time the LP went out and still don't have a fuel pressure gauge.



ColordoKing is coming over in an hour or so to give me a tow home and I'll hook up the SuperChip and read codes. I carry a spare fuel filter so I thought I'd try that also.



Crossing my fingers that it isn't the VP44. Anyway to check it? Crack fuel lines and bump starter?



Couple of days ago I went to start it and it just "bumped" like the batteries were low or the starter was out. Fired fine on the second try. Cleaned the battery cables and checked alternator output this weekend. Alternator putting out 14+ vdc consistently.



Any thoughts. I'll post codes (if any) later when I get my truck home.



Thanks folks.



Cheers,



Gunny

 

[BLMills]

Got the truck home. No codes at all.



Slighlty cracked the banjo on top of the filter going to the IP and bumped the starter, fuel seeped out. Didn't spurt out, but I didn't crack it much. Drained filter canister and checked filter. Not too dirty, and bottom of canister didn't have any sediment. Went ahead and put in a new filter. Bumped the starter 5 times. LP ran for 15 seconds or so each time (noise anyway) Drained the filter canister, but only got maybe a few ounces of fuel.



It's too late to keep cranking over the motor. Hate to make ememies out of my neighbors. I was down to little less than a 1/4 tank of fuel. Wander if maybe the fuel sending unit clogged or I'm out of fuel?



Here's may game plan for tomorrow:



Throw a 5 gal of fuel in the tank and try it.

Crack the line from LP to fuel filter and see if I'm getting fuel.

Maybe replace the LP?

Would crankshaft position sensor cause this?

Reload the stock program back into the ECM?



My main concern: If I starved the VP44 would it die without throwing any codes?



Guess I'll finally put that fuel pressure gauge on when this is all said and done with.



Thanks to ColoradoKing (Steph King, TDR member and good buddy from work here at NORAD) for the tow home and hand with the troubleshooting.



Gunny

 

[ColoradoKing]

Good luck, Gunny. We'll do some more figuring tomorrow.

 

[KWentling]

Sounds like a fuel issue. I think the adding fuel and trying again is a good place to start. I doubt you have a CPS problem. That should throw a code and I don't think it would cause a running engine to quit.

Kim

 

[BLMills]

Here's what I know from my diagnostics this evening.



Added 5 gal fresh fuel to the tank.

Already put in a new filter last night.

Cracked the banjo from LP into the fuel filter, with a good spurt of fuel. Tightened and tried to start, no luck.

Check codes again. None. Set ECM back to stock.

Cracked banjo on supply line to IP (the one on the IP) good spurt of fuel during cranking. No start.



Had my wife crank over, while I cracked 1st injector line. No fuel.

Tried 3rd injector line. No fuel.



Hooked up a fuel pressure gauge in line between fuel filter and IP.

Bumped the starter. 4 psi the first 2 tries, then 6psi steady afterward.



While cranking shows no fuel pressure, but when I turn key off LP runs and pressure goes to 6-8psi and a couple of times topped out at 10-12 before shutting off.



Any ideas?



Bad LP?

Bad VP44?

Bad LP and VP44?



I'm think I may know the answer to my own question, but I'm still thinking about trying to change the Crankshaft Position Sensor, before the VP44, after reading a few other threads.



I have read that the Crank Position Sensor can cause the truck to die not start, due to not sensing engine rotation. Tach did come up to 100 rpm during cranking. Would the CPS cause the LP not work during cranking, but work when you just bump the starter? Does it also control fuel timing in the IP? Maybe some kind of ECM logic? Any way to test it? I know you have to pull the starter to get to it, but where are the connectors?



Any other sensors that I could be missing?



Still puzzled that I have no codes, but I guess the VP44 could have failed mechanically.



Sad part is I just adjusted the valve lash and was proud of how smooth the truck was running.



I hate to throw $1000-$1500 at a VP44 if that is not the fix.



Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to get some data out there, in case someone has a fresh idea.



Thanks,

Gunny

 

[Missouri Mule]

With getting fuel at the supply lines to the fuel filter and VP44 and no fuel at injectors seems to point to the vp44 being bad.



How long did you crank when checking fuel at injectors? You should not have to crank long before fuel gets there.

 

[BLMills]

Missouri Mule,



I guess we only cranked about 5-10 secs tops. Couldn't get my wife to turn the engine over longer than that. She kept saying it was bad for the Cummins and didn't want to hurt it.



I did go out and try it again after my last post. Verified, around 100 rpm on tach when cranking and actually noticed the pressure from the LP was around 5 psi.



Guess I could try longer tomorrow, but am already researching sources for the VP44, unless I can come up with some other test.



Thanks.

Gunny

 

[KWentling]

Gunny; Looking in the service manual, the fuel pressure spec. is 7 psi minimum with the engine cranking (not running). The crank position sensor supplies the ECM with engine speed and crankshaft position.
My experience with a dead CPS (on FIL's truck) was a check engine light, no tach, and a rough running truck. BIL was driving the truck at the time pulling a trailer. He made it home, about 200 miles, and once the truck was shut down it would not restart. Turned out the tone wheel on the crankshaft had come loose and "ate" the CPS. As I recall, the transfer pump would not run when cranking the truck, but would just bumping it. If you choose to change it, look at the end of it and see if it has damage. If so, the tone ring is loose and you get to drop the oil pan. The harness plugs directly to it. It should receive 5 volts from the ECM, and the signal is interrupted when the missing tooth on the tone ring comes around. I think you're problem is the VP44.

Kim

 

[BLMills]

Thanks Kim,



Looks like all the clues are leading to replacing the VP44.



At a 104,000 miles and not being the original owner, I guess warranty coverage is a non-starter.



Thinking about the package deal from Midwest that includes a FASS 95gph or the DDP with Stealth cover, BD lift pump and low pressure alarm.



I'll be sure to include a Fuel Pressure gauge this time. Guess I've learned my lesson.



I'll post final results when I get it fixed. Hopefully someone else can learn from this too.



Gunny

 

[Missouri Mule]

Five to ten seconds should of been long enough to get fuel to injectors.

 

[ColoradoKing]

At least the Harley is getting some road miles on it... ...

 

[BLMills]

Ok



I did some more troubleshooting after having to charge the batteries after all the cranking. Put in a new LP yesterday, since I figured I would have to do it with a new VP44 anyway. Still no start and no fuel to the injector lines, so I'm just about to order a VP44, but have a crazy question.



I called a diesel repair shop here in Colorado Springs and he pretty much confirmed that the VP44 is dead, but here is what I don't understand. He said that I can change the VP44 myself, but that I still would have to take it to Dodge to have them reflash the ECM for it to recognize the new pump. Said Dodge is pretty much the only one that can do it. Is this true? If it is this is the first I have heard of it. Haven't seen mention of it on TDR. Just doesn't make sense to me. For those that have changed your VP44 out yourself, did you have the computer reflashed to start or did you just put it in, hook it up, bleed air and go?



This is really getting confusing.



Thanks all.

Gunny

 

[Missouri Mule]

I never read about reflashing so ECM will recognize.

I have read that you have to have the same pump numbers. But many members have replaced their own vp44.

 

[BLMills]

Truck is fixed! Thanks for the help.

Well, I received the reman VP44 and ISSPRO fuel pressure gauge from Midwest Fuel Injection on Monday. Spent Monday and Tuesday nights installing the pump. Probably took longer that most, but I'm slow and didn't have a whole lot of time after work.



Welded two pieces of 3/16'' X 2' bar stock together and drilled oblong holes for the 8x1. 25 bolts to make the puller. Worked great! I will say for those that have not done this yet, it will surprise you when the cam gear finally breaks loose from the pump shaft. I tried pulling it three different times. Kept backing it off thinking that I was screwing something up. Third time I really cranked on it and it really "popped" after about 3 seconds standing back from it. Scared the heck out of me. I thought for sure I had broke something, but everything was fine.



Pump was easy to put back on. Marked the key and shaft with a yellow paint pen, as suggested in another thread. Everything else went back together fine.



This is where it got discouraging. After priming with the new LP, I could not get the engine to fire over last night. Bled and bled and bled again the injector lines. Cranked and cranked. Would not pop off. Sounded like it wanted to but wouldn't fire. Batteries finally got so low I couldn't do anything. Tried jumping with my wifes Suburban, but the batteries were too drained for it to help.



I slow charged the batteries, separately overnight and this morning tried again before work. Same thing. Engine chugged, banged, puked white smoke so bad that I thought I had really messed something up bad. Batteries faded again, but this time I hooked up the Suburban in time.

I finally opened up injectors 1, 3, 4, and 5 pretty much all the way loose and had my wife crank it again. I didn't start snugging the injectors until fuel really started spraying me good. After I tightened up each one the engine cranking speed started picking up until finally by number 5 she fired. Happy to say, I went to work grinning and smelling like diesel fuel and exhaust. Reminded me of the days flying S-3B Vikings off of carries. Same smell as those jets.



I will say that this truck has never run as good as it does right now. Between the valve lash adjustment, new LP and new VP44 it is like driving a new truck and has more power stock than it did on level two with my SuperChip. May just leave stock program for a good while. I think the VP44 had been going for some time and I was callused as to how bad it was running. I love my truck again!



For those that want to replace the VP44 themselves, it is really not a bad procedure at all, with the right tools. Find Diesel Dan's 5 part video and watch it prior. And then watch it again. Really helped. I am grateful to KWentling (Kim) and Missouri Mule for taking time to respond back with solid advice, while trying to diagnose the truck. ColoradoKing (Steph) for the tow home and encouragement and Midwest Fuel Injection for the outstanding customer support and prompt delivery. (I am sending the gauge back, decided to go with a Westach. ) Thanks to TDR in general for the wealth of knowledge and service to faithful Cummins Turbo Diesel owners.

 

[ColoradoKing]

Glad it all worked out. Just start saving some dough so we can toss a 4" exhaust on before you head to SD!

 

[RWaters]

Where can I find Dan's 5 part video? thanks for the help