Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) High copper in oil analysis

[DStarkey]

Greetings my good Diesel buddies -



I need your opinions on my oil analysis results. Short version -



Sample 1 - 13869 miles on sample - copper 8

Sample 2 - 23542 miles on sample - copper 678

Sample 3 - 9569 miles on sample - copper 95 (oil and filters changed after #2)



All other readings are within normal parameters on all 3 samples. A tech from "oil analysis inc" called me after sample 2 and said the copper may be "leaching" from the engine oil cooler. I can't find an oil cooler on the truck, and the build sheet doesn't say anything about one. I changed the oil (Amsoil 5w-30 HDD) and both filters (full flow SDF 26 / bypass BE 100) after sample 2 and decided to sample sooner for #3. I thought maybe the reading was a fluke, but sample 3 shows abnormally high copper with only 9569 miles on oil and filters. I spoke with a tech from oil analyzers today - he said they analyze many dodge/cummins units and high copper readings are common. He did state they have never seen a failure because of this, so he could only guess as to the cause. His suggestion was for me to post on TDR and see if any of you have had a similar experience. Any ideas . . . ?



Thanks -



DStarkey

 

[KevinLewis]

I had my oil sampled only twice. The first was the oil that came in the truck and it had high copper. the second was fine. i don't remember the exact numbers though.

 

[tgee]

Typically high copper on an oil sample indicates bearing wear. I personally never heard of an oil cooler "leaching copper". Your oil cooler is between your oil filter base and the block. How often do you change your oil? I noticed your one sample had 23000 miles on it. I think thats excessive even for synthetic oil.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

My first oil analysis - and highest copper reading was at 4000 miles - copper was at 19 ppm. It has come steadily down, and last analysis done at a bit over 35,000 miles on the engine and 13,000 miles on Delo 400 15/40 was 4 ppm...



Your numbers seem VERY high, and I'd sure keep an eye on it and looking for the source.

 

[BillGotthelf]

I agree the copper is mostly coming from the bearings. That is a very high number. There is a copper crush washer (thrust) on both ends of the crankshaft that usually wear faster than the bearings though.

 

[RACE427]

High Copper

Because your signature indicates you have a 6 speed, I would guess the high copper readings are due to a worn crankshaft thrust bearing which is going out. Every time you step on the clutch you are trying to push the crankshaft out through the radiator, hence the thrust bearings wear out. Any chance you have installed a clutch pressure plate with increased spring pressure? Good luck

 

[swalls]

actually it is VERY common for high copper readings to be from the oil cooler leaching, which is sort of like an extre-e-e-e-mely slow dissolving of the copper into the engine oil. If you don't have 1) high lead count, 2) high iron count, and 3) high overall particle count; it is extremely likely that the copper is indeed actually coming from the engine oil cooler. Not to worry about it, unless antifreeze starts showing up in your engine oil, as indicated by the oil reports. Bearing wear would have been indicated by a different combination of these wear metals, and your oil analysis company is most likely very good at detecting it.

 

[CPjMech]

I agee with swalls. If you don't have other metals or coolant in the oil you will prob. be ok. Take a sample of brand new oil, it is common to have high copper readings in new oil. I just sampled 200+ newer engines again (4th sample since new, copper slowly coming down), about 80% had high copper only.

 

[DSpencer]

Whew, I guess I don't have to worry about my last oil sample with 78 ppm copper. All other metals were low with 107k on the engine and 44k on the oil.

 

[MDale]

I have only tested twice but both of my samples have also came back with high copper levels. 27ppm and 41 ppm. All other levels are normal.

 

[DStarkey]

Thanks for the input everyone. According to the analysis tech, bearing wear is not an issue with high copper only. This makes me feel better, but I still want to know where it is coming from. He suggested another sample in 5k miles. Has anyone replaced this oil cooler/filter mount before? I appreciate all of your opinions.



DStarkey

 

[jrobinson2]

Copper without other metals high can also be turbocharger bearings. I have seen one time copper spikes caused by removing and reinstalling a turbo, I assume from slight contamination in the oil line.



Jared

 

[swalls]

This is kinda long, but you wondered where the copper might be coming from.....



Dstarkey, I see from 20-100 of these oil analysis reports every month. mostly on 8. 3L's but also from 5. 9's, Cats, hydraulic systems, transmissions, etc. That doesn't make me an expert of your sample, I admit, because I haven't seen the total report nor the wear trend. ALSO, you rarely can make any kind of diagnosis from a single oil sample, unless it's *really* bad. What makes oil analysis work is the "long-term trend/pattern of repeated samples. "



High copper is very common on fluids with a copper heat exchanger in the system (and it shows up most often in fluids that have ran close to or over their effective life span, IMHO!), be it engine oil or hydraulic fluids. I commonly see high copper on diesel engines and hydraulic systems with only 500 hours or so of use. It used to freak me out until I realized that the oil analysis boys know what they are doing, and have seen countless thousands of these samples. Also years ago we used to kinda double-check engines for bearing wear, and even pull oil cooler cores for pressure testing, until we saw that the lab boys were right.



The trace copper in your sample is in all likelyhood coming from the engine oil cooler (which the oil filter base is a part of. ) Don't think of it as chunks or particles of copper; think of it about the same way as iron in your blood. It does NOT mean that your oil cooler tubes are shot. The copper *does* leach into the engine oil or hydraulic fluid at a steady rate from all heat exchangers. The longer the oil has been in the system; the higher the concentration of copper will be there; DOH! But this doesn't necessarily mean it's time to replace your cooler. I have samples from Case-IH 8. 3L engines with over 16000 hours operation and the original oil cooler is still in there leaching away, with no microscopic leakage between antifreeze and oil systems. It's the same oil cooler design as the 5. 9L.



If the oil cooler core does eventually leach out/erode enough to actually thin the cooler tubes, the 1st hint will be high antifreeze residue in your oil sample. The oil analysis lab can detect the presence of antifreeze long before you will have the slightest hint of it being there. If you ever do get antifreeze from the oil cooler, it will be followed shortly thereafter by engine oil in the radiator. The oil in the heat exchanger core is at a much higher pressure than the coolant so it will leak into the cooling system while the engine is running.



IF you see an undesirable particle count, along with a high lead count indicating bearing wear, I'm pretty certain you oil lab will quickly blow the whistle. These fellows are *darn* good at detecting that problem. If your turbo bearings are worn enough to start spiking the oil sample, you will most likely also have a high particle count. If it still concerns you that it could be your turbo, you will usually find engine oil in the intake manifold tubing downstream of the turbo, because worn turbo bearings will quickly damage the turbo shaft seals, and the resultant oil mist is blown downstream on the intake side. Also you'll get a constant exhaust smoke stream from the burnt oil.



Until the lab sounds an alarm, don't worry about it. You MIGHT be running the oil a tad long is the only thing I pick up from what you have reported. I don't want to start an oil war here, but ANY type or brand of oil with that kind of mileage on it is going to pick up high copper concentrations. Keep sampling; the extra cost at each oil change is like insurance that will pay off big-tim should your engine ever develop a lube-related problem.

 

[HC]

For what it's worth, I too have seen high copper, with no "events" that I can trace it to such as turbo work, new gaskets, etc. Same as yours, all other metals and indications remained normal to very good. Several samples later, the amount of copper / mile driven on the sample is now lower again, but still much, much higher than before the spiking began.



I almost get the idea this is more age related than mileage related, because I have a 2001, but until I hit 151,000 in Sept 2003, I never saw copper higher than 10 even with some oil change intervals longer than yours (but generally changed full flow filters at 5k and bypass at 15k). Then by 170,000 in April 2004 my copper got up to 620 (almost the same as yours), and I decided it was time to change the oil (just like you did).



Now, here's the weird part. Since then copper has settled in around 50 to 70, but doesn't increase further even with long change intervals. (I'm over 200k now. ) The fresh oil that goes in with each filter change seems to offset any increases, and I'm pretty much holding even in that 50 to 70 ballpark.



Bottom line: What the others have said, especially swalls who has seen far more oil samples than most of us. Watch the samples for any other indications of problems, but as long as it's just the copper, don't lose any sleep over it.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I had copper spike to about 500ppm suddenly on both trucks I owned and sampled oil on. Both times truck was fairly new then it leveled off to almost nothing after 20k miles.



It's a very common thing on our Cummins. Nothing to worry about.



Vaughn

 

[DStarkey]

Thanks everyone (especially swalls and hc) who took time to respond to my question. I figured there would be more symptoms if I had a serious problem right now, but it is nice to have that confirmed by guys that have "been there". I really appreciate your time!



DStarkey