High rail pressure at idle after truck sitting a week

[TurbineDoc]

I own a 2006 Dodge 5.9L 3500 4x4 219K miles now, I'm 3rd or 4th owner of this truck new to me in 2017 purchased at 199K miles. I am as title says am having high rail pressures at idle 750 rpm. Up to this point a pretty decent running truck engine wise, bearing hubs, brakes, steering not so much, but I digress.

Prior to this past Christmas I had been getting an intermittent water in fuel light, I drained fuel filter, and added fuel Service treatment for water dispersal, WIF light cleared a couple of minutes with all good, this happened 3 or 4 times then no more. Truck started and drove normally for a couple of weeks after the 1st events.

I parked the truck for about 2 weeks, and started it right with no issues; but idling (750 rpm) & moving from parking sport to my carport to do trouble shooting/work the engine was running very rough rough with rattle and hesitation like poor timing, or running out of fuel.

Using the code scan feature of my Edge Insight monitor codes 2269, P0088, P0148, and P0513 were active. and would not clear.

Suspecting water still in fuel separating out after sitting, or algae; I pulled a suction on the tank with a transfer pump I have and pulled out gross fuel; sort of a brown orange you could not see through for over a week of settling in a clear jar. Not much water in the fuel but an orangish tint sort of like rusty gas that had been stored too long in a metal fuel can.

On top of this after the fact ,I found that my fuel level sensor was falsely indicating 1/4 tank as I only drained 4 gallons of fuel from the tank, so I assume I got a bad load of fuel somewhere & the worst of it is what I was trying to run the truck on laying in the bottom of the tank.

Moving forward I cleaned the tank, new float sensor, converted to run an air dog setup, with a Beans sump, and Fleece fuel filter eliminator on. Multiple stops & go on the project, having another vehicle there was no urgency or need to work in the wet & cold of winter, or miss deer season .

Deer season ended last Friday Feb. 10, the weather turned nice so I opted to finish the install.

Not much improvement Today, fresh fuel no leaks, fuel filters primed, I jumpered power across the Air dog relay, and forced lift pump to run, and press fuel from tank to inlet hose of CP3 into small capture bucket all is good there.

Truck started right up after a little extended cranking to purge system of air.

Rouge idle on my Edge 2 monitor I initially indicated 22-26Kpsi rail pressure and the same 4 codes as before.

I shut off truck cleared codes, restarted easily but rail pressure now 20-22Kpsi still at idle 750 rpm, engine will rev but sounds bad holding to the same rail pressure.

I have a new Bosch FCA headed this way, if that does not do the trick any other suggestions, fuel rail pressure switch giving bad intel to the ECM, or maybe a partially stuck open rail pressure relief valve?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

How is the fuel looking after the Airdog setup?

Did you clean the WIF sensor when you installed it into the Fleece bypass block?

Is your truck automatic or manual?

On the list of "cheap-ish" things to try first; the FCA and Rail Relief valve are some of the first items. Rarely does the CP3 fail, not that it can't be ruled out but I would anticipate injectors following the FCA and Rail Relief valve replacement.

200K+ on a factory filtration system can be really hard on the HPCR system, a bad tank of fuel could've tipped the system over.

My 03 had 207K when I got it still on the factory filtration system, but looking at the old injectors codes it's had at least two sets/mixed replacements.

 

[AH64ID]

What fuel additive did you put in?

You don’t want to disperse water in a diesel, you want to filter it out.

 

[TurbineDoc]

Thanks for replies guys, this truck has stock auto trans; as far as I know the truck is stock for the most part, 4" exhaust straight from turbo, no muffler with 5" tip (done prior to my ownership), there was an early Bully Dog programmer in the truck I reset back to stock levels, I added the Edge Insight 2 monitor, and now the Airdog system, as far as I know that is extent of upgrades.

When I dropped the tank I used the supplied hole saw with the Bean's sump and made the mounting hole in the bottom of the tank, deburred & shop vacuumed out tank. I then rinsed with hose & some purple power to dislodge any crud/algae remaining then rinsed it with fresh fuel, and rinsed that with denatured alcohol , the tank was left open and allowed to dry about 3 weeks before I got an opportunity to reinstall it and complete the Air Dog install. I did clean the WIF sensor after removing from the factory fuel filter housing, prior to installing it in the Fleece fuel filter bypass block/manifold.

Yesterday 2-14 I started with 5 gallons of fresh/clean fuel put in tank, I filled both filters with fresh fuel and then primed up to the CP3's inlet fitting by jumping pins in the AD's relay socket with engine off, reconnected the CP3 inlet fitting.

Prior to dropping the tank and discovering the crap fuel I had tried to clear the water in fuel via fuel filter replacement, draining bowl and using Hotshot fuel additive, which had limited success as water in fuel light would come on then clear, until finally not coming on again at all.

This was when I was still pretty much driving daily or leaving truck sit for just a few days. As described in 1st post the difference was truck sitting a couple of weeks, and me drawing tank to nearly empty due to faulty fuel level indication.

I suspect what was happening is the treatment had emulsified the water with the fuel and made it within what the engine run without issues/WIF sensor could detect and with truck sitting the suspended water/crud went to the bottom of the tank and then the engine was no longer a happy camper.

So now back to square 1 so to speak, clean fuel, dual filtration 30/2 micron now down, all codes cleared except the P0148 code, and crappy idle /high fuel rail pressure. I went through the diagnostics pages found on Genos Garage with respect to HPCR fuel system on the 5.9, I also went through my Cummins engine tech manual and am reading plenty of info for low rail pressure, but only limited information on high rail pressure @ idle.

What I read there sort of points to FCA as next suspect, new one is inbound due in tomorrow, I'll let you know how I make out with that.

One thing I know for sure what was initially drained/cleaned was not what the engine likes to be fed.

This is my 1st foray into 5.9 Cummins common rail diagnostics, but I have a broad depth of Diesel fueled engine experience.

I'm normally dealing with mechanical fuel injection on my Ford & JD tractors, I'm also a GM 6.2/6.5 IDI enthusiast since 2000 those have MFI with electronic monitoring/fuel delivery timing solenoids on end of the IP, I used to participate/moderate several of the GM 6.2/6.5 forums on the web.

I also did a stint as manager of CSX RR Diesel locomotive shop running 4000-6000 Hp. EFI & MFI engines through repair/overhaul, and leading the team to convert from MFI to EFI/common rail on those.

Nov 2021 I retired after 33 years with GE as a field tech/engineer installing/servicing 1K-60Kshp aero-derivative marine and industrial gas turbines used in ship propulsion, power generation, and nat. gas compression ergo the "Turbine Doc" name here and elsewhere "healing sick turbines" .

 

[AH64ID]

Since you are basically stock why go with a sump, AD, and stock filter delete? There are better setups that will not have the potential headaches.

What filters are on the AD? Many of them aren’t as good as the single stock filter. There are no 2um filters anymore, so that’s just 20 year old marketing…

The FCA is a good start, and likely causing the issue.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Since you are basically stock why go with a sump, AD, and stock filter delete? There are better setups that will not have the potential headaches.

What filters are on the AD? Many of them aren’t as good as the single stock filter. There are no 2um filters anymore, so that’s just 20 year old marketing…

The FCA is a good start, and likely causing the issue.

Lets keep this on track with OPs high rail pressure idle problem first. He's got clean fuel, that's progress in pinpointing the system/components that are the issue. Low side delivery not being one of them.

 

[Ozymandias]

No matter what you did to clean - you need to drop in a Biozide now to kill every and all residual traces of the contamination. Otherwise you are back on field one within a couple weeks or months.

 

[AH64ID]

Lets keep this on track with OPs high rail pressure idle problem first. He's got clean fuel, that's progress in pinpointing the system/components that are the issue. Low side delivery not being one of them.

Oye.. very relevant if you understand what has been modified.

The WIF sensor will now only illuminate if the f/w sep is full and passes water to the injection pump (one of many drawbacks to what he did, but VERY relevant), so it's extinguishing could easily be false.

If he has some of the optional filters for the AD he may not be separating any water (likely not as issue with a cleaned tank, but what about what was in the rail/return lines).

Lots to consider when mods are made in the middle of troubleshooting.

 

[TurbineDoc]

Thank you for responding AH64ID

Overkill I know, I'm not a fan of in tank fuel pumps, or wimpy rail mounted pumps; on my GMs I built my own dual filtration system with dual lift pumps higher volume I can selectively turn on as more fuel might be needed, fuel pressure monitoring, vacuum switches on the Racor filters & WIF sensors etc., (Feed the Beast for 6.5s) if you have ever seen it was my invention though I did not patent it, othrs have and sell them for decent coin.

For this truck I just didn't feel like sourcing & building another system thinking from recommendations of some "Dodge guys" I know that routinely work on 5.9s the AD fully kitted as a package was their recommendation "the way to go".....hind sight being 20-20 I should have gone my own way to begin with.

Anyway for better or worse the AD setup is what I have now, I'm using the filters that came with it, I'll probably be looking to go with a WIX or Baldwin for replacements.

Now that I'm retired at some point down the road I may modify the truck for more power, but my wife's 30 year old "honey do" list has been keeping me occupied, discretion being better part of valor; I only work on trucks for now when they are not working as they should.

Should the FCA not "fix things" any thoughts on next route?

 

[AH64ID]

Actually I was thinking the opposite of overkill. The in-tank pumps have proven to be far more reliable. You’ve lost low tank ability with the sump, and lost a functioning WIF sensor. You have a setup for the track now, not the road. But it’s done.

What filters came with it? Do you know the part number?

Don’t use Wix fuel filters, as they are never as good as what they cross to. There are good Baldwin f/w seps and Donaldson/Fleetguard make the best secondary filter for a HPCR.

If it’s not the FCA it’s possible something was damaged in the CP3 with the bad fuel.

What was the additive you used?

 

[TurbineDoc]

Oye.. very relevant if you understand what has been modified.

The WIF sensor will now only illuminate if the f/w sep is full and passes water to the injection pump (one of many drawbacks to what he did, but VERY relevant), so it's extinguishing could easily be false.

If he has some of the optional filters for the AD he may not be separating any water (likely not as issue with a cleaned tank, but what about what was in the rail/return lines).

Lots to consider when mods are made in the middle of troubleshooting.

Ditto one of my concerns once I installed the AD as it was keeping original WIF in basically original location AFTER?? fuel filters, I will be adding separate WIF sensing prior to the AD inlet once I get bandwidth in my schedule to add it. I should say I'm semi-retired (I'm consulting now i.e. "in case of emergency break glass call Tim), I'm on a flight Sunday for 7-10 days in Argentina to go teach some new guys GE hired after I retired how to remove/replace a turbine installed in a 1 of a kind high speed car ferry.

I will also add biocide though I expect what ever was in there is removed or dead with nothing to "feed on or breed in" for over a month.

Interesting comment "no 2 micron filters" only sales hype I could expect 2 micron nominal as being available, and a 2 micron absolute being the "unicorn" I'll have to do some research, my Racor filters on the GMs are supposed to be 2 Micron, and Wix and Baldwin also used to make 2 micron filters. I exchanged emails with the Air Dog engineer and according to him 20 micron nominal 90% efficient on the primary water separator, and 2 micron on secondary filter which if false makes me angry. Interesting the WIX replacement for the one Air Dog says is a 2 micron is the 33420 filter nominally rated for 6 micron Grrrrrrr, I doubt AD is in the business of making filters so just what filter are they suppling inquiring minds now want to know.

Thank you for the "heads up" on the advertised filter ratings, I'll put that into the I wish I had known category of info I have collected over the years.

 

[endoscott]

impressive ship! very cool.

 

[TurbineDoc]

Actually I was thinking the opposite of overkill. The in-tank pumps have proven to be far more reliable. You’ve lost low tank ability with the sump, and lost a functioning WIF sensor. You have a setup for the track now, not the road. But it’s done.

What filters came with it? Do you know the part number?

Don’t use Wix fuel filters, as they are never as good as what they cross to. There are good Baldwin f/w seps and Donaldson/Fleetguard make the best secondary filter for a HPCR.

If it’s not the FCA it’s possible something was damaged in the CP3 with the bad fuel.

What was the additive you used?

Wow as I start peeling back the layers of the memory banks how this has transpired, I have been dealing with this since last October in some degree.

My truck is not a daily driver it was bought to pull our Church disaster relief ministry equipment trailer (hurricanes, floods, tornado recovery) running about 12K in weight, which my 98 K1500 GMC with the 6.5 can do with mods done to it, but not legally.

The sticker on door says 6600# max, so to keep out of DOT trouble for myself and the church I got the 3500 Dodge with 5.9, I also use the truck to go to my camp 350 miles round trip. If I were to guess maybe 1000 miles or so with the "suspect fuel" as I don't know how long it had fuel contaminations and went from bad to worse if algae is a contributor.

Thank you for keeping up with me John, my apologies to other readers if this is old ground to some, it is new to me and if allowed I'll keep posting as if you aren't trying you aren't learning, maybe someone else can benefit from it as well, as I learn sometimes myself after finding out what not to do.

The fuel additive was Hotshot or Howes I don't recall which I was at my camp when 1st WIF alert came on, I grabbed what the local O'rileys had on the shelf not many choices where I was 160 miles from home to find water dispersion additive.

Prior to that when the 1st WIF light came on I opened drain on filter housing no water in fuel observed, all was good for a week, next trip up cool weather WIF again on start up, drained filter, no observed water from drain but still WIF light, I attempted to change filter with tools I had, no success, I did not own the 29mm socket I needed for filter canister top, but after running at idle for a while the WIF light went out, drive home from camp and a few more trips later local driving at home no WIF.

About week later in 1st part of Nov cooler weather momentary WIF but clearing on drain/and "warm up" at idle, the fuel filter socket came in & I had replacement filters from ebay 4 Pack USA MADE Baldwin PF7977 For DODGE RAM 5.9 DIESEL FUEL FILTER 2003 - 2010, I don't know what was in there prior to me changing out, again no water from drain, I "mopped out the canister" with lint free wipe on long needle nose, new filter, with bowl primed with fresh fuel, screwed on the top.

All good for a couple of days same thing, low temps WIF, drained bowl no observed water, changed filter again but put in the additive then, that seemed to do trick, I didn't need the truck so it was parked for about 3 weeks after last operation no alarms or WIF indications. But after that is when all heck broke loose, leading me to "pump & dump" tank etc. as detailed above and brings us to where we are now.

Thanks again for allowing me share.

 

[TurbineDoc]

impressive ship! very cool.

It is unique , based on a catamaran hull (2) 30Kshp turbines each driving a water jet in each hull, dual fuel ; Diesel & LNG that gets expanded to gas fuel once vessel is underway for greener operation and has enuff heat energy to "boil the liquid gas" in a heat exchanger in each GT exhaust shift then from Diesel to LNG.

Can carry 150 cars & 1000 passenger capability @ 58 kts., turning a 14 hour drive, or 6 hr. conventional Diesel engine powered ferry trip, into a 2 hour trip one way, then after about 1.5 hours at ferry terminal reload and return; Buenos Aires Argentina to Montevideo Uruguay.

 

[TurbineDoc]

Success or at least looking that way, much improved I still need to go for a test drive.

Thank You all for the remote tech assist. I will update more after test drive.

Clean fuel & new FCA was the ticket, no fluctuating rail pressures up to 1476 engine rpm have a look at the attached photos from edge monitor display.

 

[Rowdy Dalton]

My .2¢. Drain every bit of fuel you can, from the tank and system. Fill with fresh stuff, add a biocide, and hope the injectors aren't blocked. But, that's another treatment.

 

[Tuesdak]

You do not ever want to use a water dispersant in Diesel Fuel. The Bio they add now and ULSD is bad enough as it is. The bugs/mold/bacteria at some point have enough water to grow IN the fuel rather than only at the water/fuel layer in the tank like it did in the past.

A little background on bugs and the modern ULSD now spiked with 5% BioDiesel in states like mine.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/ulsd-and-biodiesel-exposed.248698/

Not sure RAM Cummins has an equivalent, but, you run this through the fuel system with hoses in a 5 gal bucket. Do Not Put it in the tank! It's what I used after a bad infection on a SOB HPCR.

GM 19355198 - FLUID UPPER ENGINE & FUEL INJECTOR CLEANER-32 OZ

A little gasoline will make sure the bugs are dead IF your Biocide is the wrong "cure" for the bugs that are growing. They can double in numbers every 24 hours. Not something you want to sit a week uncured. Hopefully the Biocide you chose works. If not the bugs can make the fuel corrosive and eat your injection system alive.

 

[TurbineDoc]

As we used to say in USN Post Op Test Sat (post repair operational test satisfactory).

I went on a short road test this evening maybe 5 miles round trip, truck performing as it was before I started having the high rail pressure issue @ idle see attached photos of engine data:

Noted there is a concern with algae in the tank, I think that has been taken care of, tank and fuel system was drained to 0 fuel in system and remained that way for about a month, with exception of any residual fuel in injector feed lines from common rail manifold. Tank was dropped and cleaned as outlined in previous post. Fresh fuel put in tank today, I will treat the new fuel in the tank now; does anyone have a best recommendation for biocide/fuel treatment?

FPPF or Stanadyne Blue is what I use in my GM 6.5's, also any recommendations what NOT to use for maintenance additive?

In my time of ownership there has never been any Bio Diesel used in the truck, I cannot say what previous owners may have used or how well they maintained filters. Now that I have the air dog system the 1st filter is a water separator type with ability to drain fuel/water from the bowl, I will drain/sample that until I'm confident "bugs" are no longer an issue for me.

I really think now the main culprit that kicked this whole episode was my fuel level sensor crapping out letting me operate down into the "mud" & bugs" laying in the bottom of the tank. One side benefit when I refilled the tank today I did it a gallon at a time and made a float level/fuel gage "cheat sheet"

Thanks Again

Tim

 

[TurbineDoc]

More pics apparently I'm limited to 4 per post

 

[Tuesdak]

In my time of ownership there has never been any Bio Diesel used in the truck, I cannot say what previous owners may have used or how well they maintained filters. Now that I have the air dog system the 1st filter is a water separator type with ability to drain fuel/water from the bowl, I will drain/sample that until I'm confident "bugs" are no longer an issue for me.

I really think now the main culprit that kicked this whole episode was my fuel level sensor crapping out letting me operate down into the "mud" & bugs" laying in the bottom of the tank.

Do not let my B99 experiment gone wrong disqualify what I am saying. Do you know what % BioDiesel you are getting at the pump, now? In Arizona they are at 5% BioDiesel everywhere and not required to be labeled at or below 5%. It's a quick and dirty way to add lube to ULSD and required by law here. Your State may vary.

Forget about the mud/bugs at the bottom of the tank. That's Old School knowledge to a High Sulfur Diesel Fuel No Longer Sold in The USA. Modern ULSD likes it's water in suspension. To the point that bugs can grow in the fuel itself. Adding a water dispersant, "OOPS!", puts more water in the fuel the bugs need to grow. Again It's no longer just the water/fuel layer that bugs grow at anymore.

Running the fuel level low isn't the same when bugs are growing in the fuel itself AND the water fuel layer like it always has.

I hope the biocide I randomly picked ... Is it Mold, yeast, bacteria, etc. growing in the fuel? Just saying unless you test the fuel there is no way to be sure. Some products will be ineffective. Brands don't matter: What's in them for the pesticide matters as two brands can be the same thing. This one didn't work so I picked another brand of the same thing and still not working.

I am not going to pay to test the fuel either. So I use a couple different active ingredient products. A NEW bug can render the products useless. (Did I mention gasoline as a last resort treatment and only because the bugs are also destroying the injection system quickly?)

You want a Biocide that works in the fuel as the ones that just treat the water fuel layer are now OBSOLETE.