Hmmm, E85 the first renewable fuel source?

[steved]

I saw this a week or so ago... one of the idiotic news channels reported that E85 vehicles were the first to use renewable fuel source.



I guess bio-diesel doesn't count? :-laf

 

[Tractorat]

Somebody please correct me if Im wrong. But, Im sure Ive heard, from several sources, that E-85 ethanol uses more energy to create than it produces.



If that is correct, then by definition, isn't it really NOT a renewable fuel source ?



TRat

 

[TRoss]

as I understand it, the margin in the net energy yield is pretty low, especially compared to biodiesel, to say nothing of the other advantages that biodiesel and diesels in general have over E85. However, at the moment the cost of producing the ethanol is easily offset. The producers actually make more selling the byproduct as chicken feed than they do off the fuel itself, and so the fuel is relatively free. So that makes it economically feasible, I am not sure if it actually helps anything that its supposed to be helping as an alternative fuel.

 

[steved]

Somebody please correct me if Im wrong. But, Im sure Ive heard, from several sources, that E-85 ethanol uses more energy to create than it produces.



If that is correct, then by definition, isn't it really NOT a renewable fuel source ?



TRat

Correct, it requires almost a unit of energy to produce a unit of energy from methanol/ethanol...



The part that got me was they totally ignored bio-diesel...



And the worst part now is there is starting to be a food shortage due to the changeover from everything else to methanol/ethanol. You can see food prices steadily rising... and you beer drinkers: the cost of a pound of hops went from $3/pound to $25/pound, get ready; the brewers are already complaining!!

 

[Forrest Nearing]

yes, corn ethanol is ultimately a non-renewable resource in the grand scheme of things...



never mind the fact that there's gasoline in E85

 

[steved]

never mind the fact that there's gasoline in E85

You know what the absolute funniest thing about the entire E85 thing is??



All the yuppies around here are buying E85 "flex fuel" vehicles up left and right... and there's but ONE station in Philadelphia that has E85!!! In fact, I have only seen ONE station in the central and northwestern portions of Pennsylvania that has E85!!!

 

[GHarman]

I guess I'm jes' a really dumb person in the scheme of things. Herr Diesel developed his engine to run on vegetable oil. (E-85, the first renewable fuel?) We are told that Ethanol is the new fuel of the future; we want to be like Brazil with their sugar cane ethanol production capabilities but without sugar cane, so we substitute food grains for ethanol production and our food prices soar. Coal derived Diesel/biodiesel is ignored as a real/renewable fuel source, not a complete substitute but better than the ethanol scam. I wonder who is running these programs. They must have gotten their degree through an Alice in Wonderland reality dropout student exchange program:-laf. Hey Mon, the Joints eerr free, Columbian MON. 'Course this is just my "Laymans" opinion. What do I know? GregH

 

[fox]

As I understand it, ethanol is cost effective after the mash is sold as cattle food.

 

[EKlem]

There are different types of ethanol. What most people in the US think of is corn derived ethanol. There is a net positive energy yield on this but it is low. However, ethanol can be produced from sugarcane and switch grass. Brazil is oil independent not because it has large oil reserves(they are much too small to run the country off of) but because of ethanol produced from sugarcane. Corn is not the answer. The positive energy yield varies alot from source to source and refiner to refiner but the worst ones are around 20-30% positive and the best ones are close to 80-90% positive.

No, ethanol is not the first renewable fuel. Electric cars(they used to be more popular than gassers before the model T) which are recharged from renewable sources have been around since the 60's and vegetable oil and biodiesel have been around for a while too. Yes, there is some gas in E85 but it is less than the amount of diesel in most biodiesel(most is B20). Interestingly, E85 has some cold weather issues so biodiesel is not alone on that front.

 

[steved]

However, ethanol can be produced from sugarcane and switch grass.

And let's not forget sugarbeets!

 

[SNiebaum]

vegetable oil and biodiesel have been around for a while too.

the first "diesel" ran on peanut oil, a renewable energy source.

 

[CSkal]

As I understand it, ethanol is cost effective after the mash is sold as cattle food.

This is what I have heard as well.

Looking at things from an emissions standpoint, I understand that with the increasing acreage that is being dedicated to corn production, the emissions increase due to maintenance and harvesting of the fields is actually greater than the benefits of the (supposedly) cleaner burning corny fuel.

 

[AllianceDiesel]

Don't forget that ethenol produces 70% more green house gasses than regular dinosour bones, uses a bunch of water to produce in a already drought striken area, and you get at least 5 mpg worse than regular gas. Thats because ethenol burns slower and doesn't have as much energy. Its like putting water in your gas. Its a waste of money and a way for the tree huggin hippies to put a bandaid on a problem.

 

[steved]

As I understand it, ethanol is cost effective after the mash is sold as cattle food.

As was noted... the mash is conveniently converted to methane by the cows (another source of greenhouse gas) and produces large amounts of animal wastes that need managed...



There is NO easy solution!

 

[AllianceDiesel]

Ya put a cataletic converter on the cows but, oh wait california is probably already doing that.



On that note, I'm sorry for anybody that has to live in California, it must suck to live where everything magically causes cancer.

 

[steved]

Ya put a cataletic converter on the cows but, oh wait california is probably already doing that.



On that note, I'm sorry for anybody that has to live in California, it must suck to live where everything magically causes cancer.

Everything does cause cancer... if the dose is excessive or frequent enough!

 

[BSMcCauley]

Somebody please correct me if Im wrong. But, Im sure Ive heard, from several sources, that E-85 ethanol uses more energy to create than it produces.



If that is correct, then by definition, isn't it really NOT a renewable fuel source ?



TRat

By the time you get through adding up all the petroleum required to prepare the ground, haul & plant the seed, manufacture the fertilizer and then transport THAT to the field and apply it, cultivate, harvest, (let's also not forget hauling fuel to the equipment in the field working the crop), haul to the bin, dry the corn, haul to market, transport to the distillery, process into ethanol, and then transport that all the way to the retail fuel pump, it is quite clear that ethanol is the most inefficient way to turn petroleum into motor fuel that could ever be dreamed up. Should just leave it as diesel fuel and haul that to the retail pump in the first place.



BTW: I sat next to an Exxon marketing executive on a plane back to Houston not too long ago and he told me that, "if people want E85, we'll sell them E85, but they're kidding themselves if they think that is any better on the environment as compared to gasoline or diesel fuel. "

 

[Cattletrkr]

Don't forget that ethenol produces 70% more green house gasses than regular dinosour bones, uses a bunch of water to produce in a already drought striken area, and you get at least 5 mpg worse than regular gas. Thats because ethenol burns slower and doesn't have as much energy. Its like putting water in your gas. Its a waste of money and a way for the tree huggin hippies to put a bandaid on a problem.

More greenhouse gases? Prove it. Uses a bunch of water, do a little research and I think you'll find something interesting there too.

 

[AllianceDiesel]

You don't think I know anything about ethanol, I am from a farming and ranching community I grew up around cattle and farming, my dad does both. This is a major issue around here. I know my facts, I also know that it needs like 1. 3 gallons of gas to produce one gallon of ethanol, raises food prices, animal feed prices



Oh did I say that we are in a drought and already have restrictions on the amount of water a pivot can use a year, but I guess I don't know anything about ethanol. Don't believe anything Al Gore says because thats how he is making money.



water useage: ABC News: Experts Differ About Ethanol-Water Usage



pollution:

http://ff.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=381



mileage loss:

Ethanol: More Polution and Lower Gas Mileage? - AutoblogGreen

 

[Cattletrkr]

I know my facts, I also know that it needs like 1. 3 gallons of gas to produce one gallon of ethanol,

... and how much water to produce one gallon of gasoline? I realize the problem for you is that gasoline isn't refined locally and ethanol is, but the comparison doesn't work against ethanol in general, just against making it where you are.

raises food prices, animal feed prices

The price of oil has as much or more to do with rising food costs. Yes, the feed cost part definently sucks. That one hits pretty close to home for me too.

Oh did I say that we are in a drought and already have restrictions on the amount of water a pivot can use a year, but I guess I don't know anything about ethanol.

So quit growing corn. If you can't raise it, don't grow it. Around here you guys (farmers in NE) are widely considered one of the favorite sources for quality alfalfa. Nothing wrong with that.

Don't believe anything Al Gore says...

I never have and never will

mileage loss:
Ethanol: More Polution and Lower Gas Mileage? - AutoblogGreen

Yes, E85 sucks mileage. I have family members with E85 vehicles and they won't buy it. Can't say I would either.

I'm not saying E85 is the answer. I don't like it and I think it's going to hurt as much as it might help. But don't come out swinging with no facts. Back it up.