Home electrical problem has me stumped

[tmacc]

I'm not sure this is the forum for my problem, but here goes. While running a waste line for the new tub during the remodeling of the upstairs bath, I had to drill a 3" hole w/ my 18 volt cordless due to clearance between the floor joists. Well the hole saw blade jambed and "walked" across the joist and snagged a 12/2 romex that supplies the GFIs in the downstairs bathroom. OK here is the problem. No breakers tripped. I check both elec. panels and every GFI outlet I could find and no joy on finding were the line side originates from.

The house is 35 yr old and through a series of owners... ... lets just say we've found quite a few instances of creative wiring/plumbing/carpentry. Does code allow you to skin back the romex insulation and tape lamp cord on it to supply an additional oulet? Well, they did use electrical tape. LOL. Anyway, I degress. I have a line tracer, but where do I start? Thanks in advance.

Tom

 

[Hoefler]

No. All connections must be in an approved box. And lamp cord is not approved for a permanent type installation. You should check with an electrician in your area, as codes differ from city to city.



Your best bet would be to cut the wire where you skinned it with the hole saw. Install the appropriate box and connect a section of 14/2wg and install an outlet where ever you need it.

 

[tmacc]

Hoefler, That question was tounge-in cheek. One of the previous owners did just that. Skinned back the insulation and, using lamp cord, wired it to a bare oulet and wrapped some elec. tape around everything. Voula' a working outlet. AND. . it was back in a some what concealed storage area. Lucky the house didn't burn down.

I'm very familiar w/ what to do junction boxes and repairing the the damage, but the problem is the "hot" side of the wire has no electron flowing. Yet, all breakers and GFIs (that I can find) are in the on position. I was hoping someone had an "easy" way to trace this thing. Of course the panel in the basement is a rat's nets of Harry Homeowner wiring. I've got enough of the floor in the bathroom torn up that I can run power from another outlet to supply the downstairs outlets and temporarily wirenut off the offending wire in a 1900 box, but... ... .

 

[WDixon27]

sounds like my house, i had to change my breaker box to something less combustion friendly without all of the bare stuff and wires stuffed under others to make connection, i still need to get a real electrician to change the aluminum wire from the main to the box

 

[TowPro]

Well the hole saw blade jambed and "walked" across the joist and snagged a 12/2 romex that supplies the GFIs in the downstairs bathroom. OK here is the problem. No breakers tripped. I check both elec. panels and every GFI outlet I could find and no joy on finding were the line side originates from.

Tom

I bet somewhere is another GFI outlet and this wire is connected to the load side. My house has a GFI in one bathroom, then the Load side is wired to the other bathroom. Took me a while to figure that one out :-laf . My last RV had one that had all the other outlets on the load side.



I installed one in my house on the outside wall, then sent the load side to my Ham Radio bench. Great Idea until I relized I have to move my firewood pile when ever I trip the GFI

 

[cap-n-cray]

Junction boxes are also suppose to be accessible. If you can turn off the power to the house you can use a signal tracer, like the ones for phone lines. It also may be on another GFIC like TowPro said.



Cary

 

[firemanram]

I am a electrician. Get you 2 plastic nail-on boxes ,2 blank covers and a piece of 12/2 not 14/2. Plug in a lamp if you don't have a tester and turn off the breakers 1 at a time until you find the right breaker. If you have any questions PM me.

 

[tmacc]

Junction boxes are also suppose to be accessable... ... ... It also may be on another GFIC like TowPro said.

Yes, they are. However this wire runs under the tub. So, I'm debating whether to put two blank covers in the ceiling of the 1st floor bath. Hmmmm, need to run that one by the war department. I've been a licensed GC for 15 yrs, so junction boxes are your friend when your working on old/older homes, which is primarily the kind of work I do. Like TowPro said, it may be a GFI that I haven't located. It's not that the house is big or anything, it's just got some weird wiring. In the 2nd floor bath I could have wired it using half the wire the previous owner/contractor did. We won't even talk about the started, but unfinished family room in the basement. Who sets outlet at 48" off the floor. Maybe someone too lazy to bend over to plug something in I guess. So, when I finish the basement, I'll have to completly re-wire it to set the outlet boxes at normal height. I guess wire stretchers aren't available. LOL



Firemanram, I've got an Ampobe, tickler, multimeter, tracer. You name it. The problem is no juice on the supply side of the wire w/ all breakers on. The only outlets that seem to be affected are the outlets in the 1st floor bath. Had to deal w/ a frozen truck today, so I haven't been able to start going thru boxes to see if something shorted other than where the saw hit the wire. Thanks for the offer to help. Let me do a little investigating and I'll PM you.

 

[daveshoe]

I was really stumped recently as well. a circuit breaker that is ''on'' is not necessarily working. Mine was especially difficult to trace because all the breakers made both the Wiggins and the emitter sound off at the panel,and the offending breaker worked part of the time,perfectly mimicing a loose connection. If you know which breaker controls this wire, replace the breaker,or temporarily connect the offending circuit to a known working breaker at the panel.

 

[tmacc]

Dave, I wish I knew what breaker the offending wire is suppose to be hooked up to. There are two elec. panels. The original one and one of more recent vintage. I've been trying to get the plumbing rough in finished and haven't taken the time to really track this thing down. Right now both ends are in accessible junction boxes w/ a temporary jumper from another circuit so the outlets work in the 1st floor bathroom. Just trying to get the drywall up so the finisher can get to work. Then I can take the time to solve this problem. 90% sure it's in the old panel. Just need to cut loose about 10 coats of paint... ... . Well, off to sweat copper and glue ABS.

 

[daveshoe]

I know one guy who got so frustrated trying to trace a bad connection that he turned off the power to the entire house,and then backfed the power from the dead fixture backwards through the system. He used 110 volts from a neighbor's house, but if I had a tester for DC current,a battery or a low amperage battery charger seems safer to me. I am telling you right here and now that I do not know how safe or unsafe this could be --especially in a house that has questionable connections. If your tracer can detect 24 volt AC, perhaps you could wire a transformer for a doorbell in this manner,and avoid the welding arcs.

I am not an electrician,so you should consult with one before you try any of this stuff. BTW, did I tell you I am not an electrician?

 

[JFaughn]

Just a nother possiblity , maybe when the drill caught the wire it pull out its connection,

 

[tmacc]

Dave, Turning all of the power off sounds a bit drastic, but I'm down w/ the guy's frustration. LOL



John... That possibilty has crossed my mind numorous times. I still haven't found the time to look any futher into it. I'll post the results when I find out.

 

[JFaughn]

How about checking for connection of the other wires, ground & nutral , if ones still conected use for wire pull to put in new . if either of the others are connected pull the covers on all the closist boxs and have someone tug on the load in ? until they see some movement.

 

[2-ND TIME]

electrical problems

Tooo much to read... If memory serves me correctly. You need a seperate neutral (wire) for your signal tracer. This can be just that. If it is a GFCI press test and it should trip the breaker. Yes you should put all splices in an approved box. and do use 12/2 loomex. If you can't find the breaker ( when in dought short it out. ) It is a little drastict but does work not the first time its been done.

 

[Headshot zod]

ugh! and people wonder why Romex isn't legal in some states. I'm rewiring my house and I'm piping the whole thing why EMT even though it isn't required.