Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) How much timing is needed?

[JGheen]

I am going to be adjusting the timing on my engine here soon and need some advice as to how much more should I give it. My bombing is listed in my sig and my pump is a 215 and has never been adjusted before so it is still at the stock setting of 13. 5*.

So, with my current set-up, how much more timing should I go to? After reading some FAQ on the Piers site, it is mentioned that 1* advance is better and 2* in not, for mild HP engines. I would consider my engine to be on the edge of mild to medium HP. Never had it dynoed, so not sure on the exact performance numbers, but my wild guess is somewhere between 300-375 HP and 700-750 ft. -lbs. torque. So, if I went 2* advance, would it be too much?

What happens if too much timing is given but not needed?

I am running the stock head gasket and obviously cylinder pressure goes up when timing is advanced. But at what point would the head gasket be in danger of leaking or blowing out due to the timing adjustment? The max boost I regularly see is around 38, but sometimes, depending on throttle position @ around 3000 rpm, I can hit 40. Would that much boost with the increased cylinder pressure from the timing adjustment, cause a possible leak or blown gasket? I know it varies from engine to engine, but for you experienced fellows out there what have you seen or heard in this situation?



Thanks a lot guys, Joe

 

[RHARVEY]

Joe,

When I finally get around to doing the timing on mine... I want it setting between 15. 5-16*.



Rick

 

[JGheen]

Thanks, Rick, but not the answers I was looking for. I was thinking that was what I am going to go to, but thought I would ask some other questions that would increase my knowledge to this timing aspect.

 

[kentdiesel]

Joe,

I have a 215hp truck and I set the timing to 16 degrees 8k ago and have had no problems. I set the timing with the Snap on Dial Indicator timing kit and Piers lift chart. A cummins marine headgasket is just $90. 00 so I if the stock gasket blew its not the end of the world. I chose 16 degrees because after reading the forum it seemed the be the general opinion that around 15-16 degrees is safe for a stock headgasket. I have seen low to mid 40's boost many times before and after the timing change. I used the old washer and nut.

The most important thing is to make sure there is absolutely no oil on the pump shaft taper or gear when you assemble. Brake parts cleaner that leaves no residue is the recommended cleaner. I did put alittle oil on the pump shaft threads.

Good luck,

Kent

 

[JGK]

JGheen,



Other than me having the PDR HX40, the cam and the 370 injectors, your truck and mine are not that much different. I have mine timed at about 16. 4*. All is good. If I were you I'd go to at least somewhere around 16. You should be fine.



You say you have the 215 pump, as I do. Be advised that pump CAN be a challenge to time when you get up to 16* or more. The issue is, once you get the pump rotated up to the point you want it, when you pop the gear loose to rotate the engine back to reset it at TDC, the pump may counter-rotate back a bit, as much as 1 full revolution of the Snap-on dial indicator. I have a loooooog story to tell about how that gave me fits 2 years ago when I timed mine the first time It may not happen on all 215 pumps, but it does happen. One we figured out what was going on (thought the gear was slipping when we fired up the truck), it took us a while to figure out how to get around it. Now it's pretty easy to do.



As to too much timing, 16* is not too much. I can't say there was a single adverse affect to setting mine at 16. 4. When you get really up there (18* and up) starting and idle can be hard/rough. Higher timing will help the engines EGTs come down, too. I've had mine set at 16. 4 for the last 20K miles at least and I can easily hit 40 lbs boost. On the dyno, I hit 3400 or so rpms, boost just over 40, EGTs went to 1500 (very briefly) and measured speed at 126 mph. That was last spring.



Get a bigger turbo and injectors. You'll like it!



-Jay

 

[JGheen]

Thanks for the advice, JGK. Yeah, I hear ya on the turbo and 370s but money is tight right now and the wife's needs don't help that cause either. :{

I guess 16* will be the magic timing number for me.

So, if this pump rotation issue occurs, am I just going to have to start over again, or is there a trick to holding it steady when re-checking TDC?

I thought when the timing was advanced, starting the engine becomes easier due to the fuel being injected sooner and starting to compress and burn earlier? Not going to go as high as 18* unless I ever go to twins or something, but why would that much timing cause hard starts? I can understand the rough idling.

 

[JGheen]

Got another question......

Thought I would ask this too about cleaning the pump shaft before the gear is pressed back on.

JGK, as you recommneded, along with everyone else in my "timing washer" thread, how do you clean off the shaft without getting a bunch of brake cleaner down in the gear case and into the engine? I can't imagine that you just let it all run down in the engine and into the oil?

Also, does one remove the pump gear completely to clean it off real good before pressing it back on? Sorry for the seemingly obvious questions, but I have never performed this operation on my engine.

When the gear nut is off and it is time to rotate the gear for the new timing setting, how is that "exactly" done? I am confused on this without an illustration. Pics would help if anyone has any.

I am sure I will see the light when I break into it, but I am not doing it by myself, as Bruce(1dslram) has offered to help me so I am definately taking the opportunity in a couple weeks to perform this with experienced help. Want to learn all I can in the meantime, though. Oo.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

16 or so should be fine on timing, I've got one at 17-17. 5 with no issues and running Water/Meth also..... 200K truck.



215's or any other truck is easy to time if you pin the pump, there is no way it can roll if it's pinned.



If you want to get technical about it, time the truck using the manual method of pinning the pump and rolling the motor backwars (nut and gear loose) to advance, then check it with a dail indicator... ... . timing is not brain surgery.



Jim

 

[drrhoades]

I have mine set at 18 and I have not had any problems what so ever with starting or rough idle, even at -10. I had it set there because I only wanted to do it once and that will be the end of it. Now I just have to get the rest of the mods done.

 

[JGK]

Yes, surprisingly, you do just squirt a bunch of brake cleaner in there to hose off the oil and let it drain down into the case. Good brake cleaner evaporates completely leaving no residue. The amout of cleaner you squirt in there, even if it's a half a can, is a small amount compared to the 3 gallons of oil you have in the engine. And as I said, it all evaporates. All access to the nut, shaft, and gear is through the oil fill tube hole in the front of the gear case.



As to the general technique, try this link on the dodgeram.org site. Also, here's some info on the pros and cons of advanced timing.



Generally, you first find true TDC and do the pointer thing on the damper. Then install the dial indicator on plunger one and remove the oil filler tube on the front of the gear case. Check your current timing at TDC. Back it off TDC, take off the nut (long breaker bar needed! and ALWAYS use a magnet on the end of the shaft to avoid dropping the nut or washer down inside the case!!!) and pop the gear. Clean the shaft and and gear with brake cleaner. Re-seat the gear with the nut torqued to about 10 to 15 lbs. Bar the engine forward till you get to the desired timing according to the dail indicator. Pop the gear off. Roll the engine back before TDC, then up to TDC (removes gear lash). Set the gear with the nut torqued to 10 to 15 lbs. Now back off the engine until the needle quits going down and run it up to TDC to check timing (things move a little in the process of poping/re-seating the gear). If its OK, torque down the nut to spec. If not, roll it to where you want it and try again. When you roll the engine backward, always go back before the point you want it then roll forward to remove gear lash. Sometimes it takes a few times.



As to dealing with the pump rotating backward, I've heard of the pinning technique mentioned by Jim, but never tried it. Rather than try to write what I did here (its long), shoot me a PM and I'll send you my phone number and I'll tell you all about it.



-Jay

 

[edmeyers]

Jim makes every thing so easy when he did mine took about 10-15 min. and he was teaching me. although i would like to do it once under his supervision before trying it on my own. i feel i have a pretty good understanding of the procedure having only seen it done once.



when you pin the pump you will lose some oil that is in the pump so make sure you check oil level after the timinng is set. i was due fo an oil change anyway so if your really worried about the brake cleaner you could just change the oil after you test drive.



oh by the way mine is at 15. 5*

 

[JGheen]

215's or any other truck is easy to time if you pin the pump, there is no way it can roll if it's pinned.



If you want to get technical about it, time the truck using the manual method of pinning the pump and rolling the motor backwars (nut and gear loose) to advance, then check it with a dail indicator... ... . timing is not brain surgery.



Jim

I know timing is not brain surgery, Jim. I have just never done it before on a diesel and would like to have someone experienced go through it with me as well as get all the info I can before I tear into it. Done a lot of timing adjustments on gassers, but diesels don't have distributors. :-laf

I was thinking of doing the pinning method, but wouldn't it just break off when I bar the engine over, it is just a piece of plastic?



Got another question for ya, Jim. In your opinion, what timing setting is too much for my set-up? I'm having a lot of you guys tell me 16* +/- . 5* or so is just about right. But I got some other people telling me to to go all the way to about 20*. I personally think 20* is way too high for the amount of fuel I am running as I have only seen people that run twins and juiced up pumps to be running anything like 20*+. Do you have a good explaination of this? Thanks, Joe

 

[JoshPeters]

I think 20 is way to much for a stock headgasket. A friend of mine with a Fire Ringed engine had his at 20 and it was to much. He lost power. I believe he's at 17. 5 now. I need to set mine... it's at 10 degrees. I'm going to set it at 16 when I get the time.





Josh

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I didn't mean to sound sarcastic, what I meant to say is the difference between 15. 5 and 16 is nothing... ... . you will never know the difference.



On timing 16 is a good number, maybe 17 depending on fuel and maybe 18 on little 160 pumps, if you run at 20 you might kick a gasket out... . might, so I would stay away from that unless you have an O-Ring.



On the pump TDC, After finding Motor TDC (drop valve method) you break the pump nut loose leaving the gear in place then line up and pin the pump (yes it's plastic) break the gear loose and roll the motor backwards to the desired amount then re-install the pump nut and NEW washer and slightly tighten it snug, then pull the pump pin and finish tightning the nut to 150-160 and finish up... ... ... . timing is done!



I've done this about 30 times!



Jim

 

[JGheen]

Thanks, Josh.



That's what I thought, man. There are just too many reliable sources telling me to go with 16*. It seems to be the most common.

At what point would the timing be so high as to burn a hole in the piston due to the burn starting so early and creating so much pressure and heat? I assume the gasket would probably go before the piston, right?

 

[JGheen]

I've done this about 30 times!



Jim

Gotta love the experienced advice! Thanks, Jim. Oo.

The picture of the how the gear is moved for the new timing is becoming more clear now. I'll probably just pull off my oil fill tube when I get home tonite and get a better idea of what is going on.

But just to clarify, when your setting the new timing, the shaft of the pump is the only thing that moves for the adjustment correct? The gear is pretty much just turned to a different spot on the pump shaft?

 

[Jim Fulmer]

The pump shaft is pinned so it doesn't move, then with the gear pulled you rotate the engine and the pump gear just turns on the shaft as it is loose.



Jim

 

[Ram-Man Cummins]

pinning the pump?

Do you mean the plastic timing pin?

If so shouldn't you barr the engine instead?

I am about to perform this too and I want to find out all I can before diving in.

Thanks.

 

[JGK]

Ram-man,



Jim is not referring to the timing pin on the gear case under the pump.



What he is referring to is on the side of the pump itself sorta just above the power steering pump (correct me if I go astray, Jim, I've only fiddled with this once or twice).



There's a plug down there that has a hex head on it so you can turn it with a wrench. Remove it and inside is a tool that comes out. It has a plastic (I think) tab on the end pointing out. Remove the tool and turn it around and put it back in. When you do the tab engages teeth inside the pump (gear teeth?) that keeps it from rotating. Now screw the plug back in.



Just remember to take it out and turn it around before torquing down the nut or barring the engine over with the timing gear seated. You'll shear that tab for sure (I've heard).



-Jay

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Ram-man,



Jim is not referring to the timing pin on the gear case under the pump.



What he is referring to is on the side of the pump itself sorta just above the power steering pump (correct me if I go astray, Jim, I've only fiddled with this once or twice).



There's a plug down there that has a hex head on it so you can turn it with a wrench. Remove it and inside is a tool that comes out. It has a plastic (I think) tab on the end pointing out. Remove the tool and turn it around and put it back in. When you do the tab engages teeth inside the pump (gear teeth?) that keeps it from rotating. Now screw the plug back in.



Just remember to take it out and turn it around before torquing down the nut or barring the engine over with the timing gear seated. You'll shear that tab for sure (I've heard).



-Jay

Yep that is it, the nut is a 24 mm or some standard size I haven't tried.



You can break the plastic pin off in the pump if you don't do it like I said... . yes I've done it... ... 3 hours later the pieces were out (pulled the pump and fished them out) and a new pin was installed... . painful timing change but a good lesson!



Jim