2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Hub conversion question

[VolsFan]

I have another hub going out and am doing some research on the spyntech coversion kit I saw the guy do on extreme 4x4 on the 1500 dodge. I really dont want to have to spend $1500, but lock out hub sound nice, and not constantly having to change hubs sounds nice too. I have read old posts about people who are satisfied with the spyntech hubs, but I was wondering had anybody got parts off a dana 60 ford truck? Will this work on a dodge? I figured it would be a lot cheaper to go this route. Thanks.

 

[ETavernier]

Vols,

It is dable. You will need the outer knuckle from the Ford, as the Ford spindles are held on by 5 bolts while the Dodge are held on by 4. Otherwise the swap should be pretty straight forward. There may be a little difficulty getting the ABS sensor from the Dodge to fit the Ford; or converting the Ford sensor to fit the Dodge harness.

Good luck.

I have installed both the Dynatrac and Spyntec kits and can say that you will be happy with both.

Eddie

 

[WilsonF]

I just finished converting mine. I didn't use the Ford knuckles, stayed with the Dodge and re-drilled the spindles. Used parts from Ford Dana 50 and 60, Kept my CAD. I have about $500 into it, new Temkin bearings and races, seals, spindle bearing kits, new ujoints and new Ford Rotors. Some sites that helped me:

Homemade Lockout Kit for 2gen trucks - Pirate4x4. Com Bulletin Board
Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Dana 60 Hub removal and converison to Ford Knuckles - Pirate4x4. Com Bulletin Board
Homemade Lockout Kit for 2gen trucks

Floyd

 

[SRath]

If you can lay your hands on a complete balljoint/lockout ford Dana 60 and take everything from the knuckles on out, including calipers, and buy the solid axle replacement shafts, you can definitely do it that way. I am, but I have done it the harder way and bought the ford components separately as I have located them. You need to be careful gathering parts separately since ford made a few changes through the years and even parts books disagree on what changed and when. Ford has always been infamous for making changes for change's sake alone causing countless interchangeability problems. Now GM and Dodge do it, too. It is much better to get everything from one complete axle. All I need now is 35-spline axle shafts and a set of old calipers would be nice to turn in for cores on rebuilt ones. I believe the dual piston ford calipers might offer some braking improvement as a bonus along with the other improvements. There was zero information on using this approach when I began gathering my parts. It sounds like there might be now. (yeah, I'm slow due to other projects and priorities for my money, but I'm getting there and doing it pretty cheap by watching and waiting for screaming bargains. )

Unless you also want to upgrade to full 1. 5" 35-spline axle shafts, both inner and outer, you would need 30-spline inners to fit the dodge carrier and 30-spline outers to fit the stock ford lockouts. I'm going whole hog with premium (real dana 60)35-spline components. The 35-spline outers are actually dana 70 sized items. For comparison, our factory axles have 1. 25" (1/2 ton gas motor dana 44 size) axle shafts and rely on a small sliding collar to join those much weaker shafts together. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and this chain of parts has some very weak links. They also offer no mileage and wear improvement over a full-time axle. Dodge finally recognized that fact at least and did away with the dumb CAD design.

Both dodge and chevy kingpin d60's, the good ones which were even interchangeable, had 35-spline inners and 30-spline outers back in the good old days before dodge decided they might save a couple dollars per truck by using the junk they switched to. Chevy did even worse by switching to IFS junk. The old axles were extremely strong and upgrading those true dana 60's even more was merely a matter of swapping to D70 35-spline outer stubs and lockouts, which was a piece of cake and cost about $500. The lockouts alone, whether stock 30 or upgraded 35 spline, saved you money every mile you drove. Given the many additional and unreliable components of the CAD system, it probably cost dodge more money per truck to downgrade our axles from what they once were. It definitely costs us thousands more to operate and maintain and upgrade these cheesy versions. And we still cannot convert to the strength and durability of kingpins over balljoints. Not easily or cost-effectively anyway.

Letting them know loud and clear how much we disapprove, and I hope that an occasional dodge engineer seeks feedback and ideas from real owners on such forums as this from time to time, may or may not ever get them to switch back, but saying nothing, as certain folks here would dictate everyone do in the name of blind brand loyalty, will definitely only encourage more of the same epic failures in design. Ford apparently listens better and has introduced a new Dana Super 60, a move dodge should pay attention to. The mere fact companies such as dynatrac and spin tech and others are finding a grateful market and high demand for their conversions is a loud and clear message and should tell the factory all they need to know, but has had no results so far.

You will find that the $1500 bare-minimum kits being offered that utilize the stock 4-bolt dodge knuckles do not get you all the way. Figure on $2000 minimum to do a full conversion that gets rid of the weak 2-piece CAD shafts and collar. More for a 35-spline inner and outer upgrade which will also require a swap of the carrier spiders to 35 spline parts along with the actual shafts. And you will be dependent upon whatever company you buy from still being around and having replacement parts should you ever need them.

 

[VolsFan]

thanks a lot for all the great information. switching to the ford setup with the two piston calipers sounds really nice, however, would you have to get a larger master cylinder? I also never thought about the fact that you are at the mercy of spyntech or dynatrac should something fail with the components. I can't wait to have reliable hubs. I am going to search the junk yard tomorrow

Rick

 

[ETavernier]

Rick,

The only componenets that are not easily found are the spindles/hubs. Both Dynatrac and Spyntec use EASY to find Timkin bearings, standard Dana 60 axle seals, and the original calipers/rotors. The hubs/spindles are copies of the Dana 60, and easy to source all of the other components. And of course you have the luxury of being able to service your bearings rather than replace a $300 unit hub on each side. I have installed both kits in the past, and previously worked on Dana 60 axle knuckles. The hubs and spindles in these kits are stout, and not likely to fail.

Eddie

 

[SRath]

While serviceable bearings, provided they actually get serviced occasionally, are infinitely more reliable and durable than unit hub non-serviceable bearings, it is still possible to get a bad one or have something go wrong. In the unlikely event that ever happened, you can pretty much count on replacing both the hub and spindle. Catastrophic u-joint failure or ball joint or lockout hub failure can also destroy those parts. Again, highly unlikely.

Besides the advantage the dual piston calipers might offer, and I'm not concerned about the master cylinder capacity or even swapping master cylinders if necessary (think about the pricey dual-piston conversions out there for which this is not an issue), I also want the extra strength of 5 spindle studs vs. 4 bolts. The good old chevy/dodge kingpin d60's used 6 spindle studs.

Another way to do this yourself, but you give up the calipers and 5-stud pattern, is to use the ford spindles and hubs and have the spindles redrilled to match the dodge 4 bolt knuckle. There may be some slight machining necessary to match the spindle-to-knuckle bore, I'm not sure, but there was at least one guy offering such kits at much lower price than the dynatrac or spin tec kits. You would then use ford rotors and your stock dodge calipers. In either case, it is advisable to have the ford hubs machined slightly to make their outer diameter match the smaller dodge/chevy specs for no other reason than ensuring that stock dodge wheels will fit.

As with any other kit, you then need to order readily-available inner and outer axle shafts. Axle shafts will always be available in custom sizes if you cannot find existing stock shafts the correct length and spline. Just contact Yukon or Moser or similar. Using the ford knuckles-on-out approach means using ford outer shafts and the custom made-to-fit-CAD-axle-dodges inners that different companies offer.

I do not know for sure what outer shafts you need with the ford spindle-and-hub only approach with dodge knuckles. I do know for sure another member here (probably more) used that guy's kit, so he would know what is needed for sure and where to get them. We were pm'ing back and forth about the similarities and differences in our approaches to solving the stock problem. He liked the kit, btw. He ended up with a slightly wider wheelbase, but I think all of these kits/conversions do that. It wasn't noticeable or any problem all.

At that time, his method of using the other guy's modified-ford hub and spindle kit saved him at least 1/3 of the price of a dynatrac setup and spyntec had yet to even offer a kit. By bargain shopping (slowly!) I figure to do the whole enchilada with 35-spline stuff all the way for somewhat less than he paid, or about half what dynatrac or spyntec wants. I could have saved a bunch staying with 30-spline stuff, but that defeats the purpose, imo. The Premium Warn Stainless Steel 35-spline lockouts alone cannot be found for much under $250 these days. But the axle shafts aren't much, if any, different in price for 30 or 35 spline and I already have a couple of spare 35-spline chevy D60 carriers.

Ball joints remain a weakness and Dynatrac introduced some new rebuildable "super" balljoints over a year ago to fit our trucks. But they were extremely expensive (4 times as much as Moogs) and had no track record so I did not want to be a guinea pig for that much money. I have no idea if they still offer them or how they have worked out for anyone who really stresses balljoints like I do with both the weight of the cummins and the weight of a snowplow. That would have been an excellent test for them and I offered to do so, but dynatrac didn't seem interested in a real world test like that, so I went with tried and true Moogs.

 

[WilsonF]

If you are doing the re-drilled spindle route you do not have to have the spindles machined to fit the knuckle bore. The only thing I had machined was the hub so my stock wheels would fit, the guy did it for $20. As for outer axles I used the Ford "11. 5 Dana 60 stub shafts with my Dodge inner axles.

Floyd

 

[SRath]

And there you have it ^^^^ Simple, solid, do-it-yourself setup that eliminates the unit hubs, but doesn't address the weak inner CAD axles. Add some real D60 inners, and you have a pretty doggone stout axle.

Good job clarifying which outers to use with the ford hub & spindle on dodge knuckle route, Floyd, as well as if the spindle-to-knuckle bores matched or not.

 

[WilsonF]

Thanks, I did a lot of research while looking for all my parts so I try to answer the questions I had during the search.

Floyd