Hydrogen generator kit for all vehicles

[EricBu12]

Heres a guy that is making the hydrogen kit for all gas and diesel engines. has different sizes for different engines.



The pics is the "quad pack" for large gas and Diesel engines.



MileageMaker Affordable Portable Onboard Hydrogen Generators for your vehicle.

 

[DPellegrin]

Humm??



No question that H2 is a clean and excellent fuel. No carbon and high heating value (energy content). Only one problem here. It takes more energy to dissociate the water into oxygen and hydrogen than the process yields in heating value. It's kind of like celery, it takes more energy to chew it than it gives you in energy calories!

 

[rweis]

I think the idea is you have the excess alternator output anyway, so use it. At least I think that is the concept. Has anyone on TDR tried one of these types of generators?, and if so what were your results.



Playing with #'s

Miles / year 16500

Miles / gallon 16. 5

Gallons / year 1000

Diesel $ $3. 50 (hypothetical)

diesel cost / year $3500



Miles / year 16500

Miles / gallon (assume 2 mpg improvement) 18. 5

Gallons / year 892

Diesel $ 3. 50 (hypothetical)

diesel cost / year $3122



Savings $378 / year (ASSUMES IT REALLY DOES PROVIDE 2 MPG INPROVEMENT)



You can slow down and probably achieve this savings. However, has anyone ever tried this type of idea?, and what were your results?



Bob Weis

 

[Hoefler]

I can see it working in theory on gassers, in a diesel, I question it. The O2 sensor is monitoring the exhaust for proper fuel burn, telling the ECM what the fuel mix should be. On diesels, at least the 5. 9's and older, there is no O2 sensor. Our fuel to air ratio is adjusted to the amount of turbo boost or manifold pressure there is in the intake. I would guess you would have a little more fuel in the in coming air, but the injectors are still going to squirt the same amount of fuel for the throttle position and air pressure available. The only fuel saving I can see, would be backing off the throttle a little because you would have a minimal increase in power.



If a person wanted to try it, you could build one from readily available pieces from the local hardware store and Wal-Mart. I would say, less than $100.

 

[DPellegrin]

rweis

I guess I'm not aware of any "... excess alternator output". The power that turns the alternator comes from the engine. The alternator converts this mechanical energy to electrical energy (voltsXamps=watts). While it's true that the alternator does not operate at rated capacity 100% of the time, when it is producing power to this H2 system it is providing this power ultimately from the diesel engine in the form of increased load. The alternator does not produce power for free.



Regards,

 

[rweis]

Well, that's true.



"The power that turns the alternator comes from the engine. The alternator converts this mechanical energy to electrical energy (voltsXamps=watts). While it's true that the alternator does not operate at rated capacity 100% of the time. "



Was the part I incorrectly implied as "excess".



It would be interesting to see a study of how much engine energy in miles / gallon it takes to turn the alternator when it is at minimum and maximum output, "when it is producing power to this H2 system it is providing this power ultimately from the diesel engine in the form of increased load. ", but how much increased load?



Obviously if it takes more engine miles / gallon than the benefit of the hydrogen and oxygen being added to the intake it is of little value.



As I mentioned before, slowing down is probably going to save more miles / gallon than most of these "add ons". I was courious to see if any TDR member had actually tried one of these systems.



Bob Weis

 

[JFaughn]

What many do not seem take into account , is that 2 different drive the same truck same conditions , they get different MPGs , then you add to that is now mod trucks , do it yourselfers & many have very little skill .
Too many variables , for any real info /stats to mean much .
The H is just doing the same thing that propane has been doing for many decades .

 

[DPellegrin]

rweis,



To answer your question about "... how much increased load?" you would have to know how much current (amps) the H2 system uses. Let's say, hypothetically, the H2 uses 50 amps. Thus 50 amps X 14. 2 volts is 710 watts. This is about 1 hp (746 watts=1hp). How much diesel fuel is this and how much H2 do you get for it? All this assumes, of course, that the system uses 50amps.



regards

 

[rweis]

For instance,



When I turn the A/C on I know it cost me about 1 mile per gallon. What would I need to know to know to figure how many hp A/C is costing me.



I would think you have to get some kind of answer in something that is relatively easy to measure like miles per gallon.



Like the H2 system. How would you convert the (assumed) 1hp into miles per gallon?



I think most of us have no idea what xx hp we have unless you have dynoed your truck, and then what part of that dyno number are you using driving down the road? However, we can all calculate miles per gallon (or a reasonable attempt to calculate miles per gallon).



Bob Weis

 

[DPellegrin]

Excellent questions Mr. Weis.



The horsepower consumed by the A/C is a function of ambient temperature. That is, the power consumed at 90F is much higher than at 80F. However, if I was going to measure this A/C power I would pick a part throttle steady state condition on the chassis dyno, say 50 road horsepower, then switch on the A/C. Road horsepower will be reduced by the amount the A/C uses. My guess is that at a 80F ambient it will be about 4-5 horsepower.



To answer the question about "... what part of the dyno number are you using to drive down the road?" The road load on the vehicle is related to basic law of physics call Newton's second law of motion expressed by the equation Force= mass X acceleration (F=MA). If you know the weight of your truck and the amount of time it takes to coast down from say 60mph to 50mph to 40mph to 30mph the road load horsepower can be calculated at those speeds on a relatively flat road. This procedure takes into account the aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance of your truck.



I agree, mpg is easy to calculate, but as a previously poster rightly pointed out there are numerous variables that can affect mpg that are hard to control and repeat accurately.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

You're using too much math!

If you want to know if this will work, you don't need anymore math than addition and subtraction. Lets take a look:

Using an alternator to split water into H2 and O2 loses you about 25% energy because of the losses in the alternator efficiency alone. Then to extract the power back out of the hydrogen they're burning it in a 4 stroke engine, which is only about 30% efficient.

Wanna keep going? We're using gasoline/diesel in a 30% efficient reaction (combustion) to drive the alternator in the first place... more losses. Then , hydrogen has only about 10% of the heat content of gasoline, so we'd need 10X the amount of hydrogen to power the vehicle the same way.



NREL (National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) Home Page) did a study on low pressure hydrogen introduction and found that it had absolutely no mileage benefit. Check it out. They used an on-board source for their hydrogen and noted that they would have a mileage loss if they loaded the alternator to produce it.

WOW! Arithmetic works!! This crap is a free-energy scheme. It's been around for years, but MAN! is it resilient lately. There's been a new thread every couple of weeks.

Joe

 

[EricBu12]

I dont know how much energy this Quad pack uses but I doubt the skinny wires in the pic use 50 amps. I have seen alot of other units that use 10-15 amps to make H2. I think that when you have extra volatile gases going in, you don't need as much throttle to do the same job. It would be neat to see how much HP and torque this creates. One guy said on a gas V-8 he went from 20 to 25 Mpg. I get close to 17 average so if Diesels are better mileages, and we have 2 batteries to help supply this unit, I'd say it would benefit... If I had $400 extra right now I'd try one. It has a guarantee. .

 

[tgordon]

It has a guarantee. .

Devils advocate, only as good as the guy you are dealing with.



I would tend to agree with Joe, if you are only using alternator power to generate the only spot I could see a benefit would be in stop and go traffic if you were to produce Hydrogen sitting at the light and them use it to accerlerate. The same sort of pronciple as the electric hybrids, only using a different source.

 

[tgordon]

and after going to their web site, I can't even use it in the winter, they only suggest going to 10% alcohol and that should be fine down to 0, so what happens when we hit -14 here:{

 

[DPellegrin]

Devils advocate, only as good as the guy you are dealing with.



I would tend to agree with Joe, if you are only using alternator power to generate the only spot I could see a benefit would be in stop and go traffic if you were to produce Hydrogen sitting at the light and them use it to accerlerate. The same sort of pronciple as the electric hybrids, only using a different source.

Two comments:

tgordon- a hybrid propulsion system use the motor/s that propel the vehicle as generators during deceleration/braking and convert the kinetic energy of the vehicle in motion to electrical energy to be stored as chemical energy in the batteries. That is not what happens with this H2 system.



JoeBioDiesel- This is the first time I have ever been accused of "... . using to much math". I would submit to you that much of the stuff on this forum needs more math and intelligent analysis before comments are made.



Respectfully,

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Two comments:

tgordon- a hybrid propulsion system use the motor/s that propel the vehicle as generators during deceleration/braking and convert the kinetic energy of the vehicle in motion to electrical energy to be stored as chemical energy in the batteries. That is not what happens with this H2 system.



JoeBioDiesel- This is the first time I have ever been accused of "... . using to much math". I would submit to you that much of the stuff on this forum needs more math and intelligent analysis before comments are made.



Respectfully,

Hi DP,

From your post I can't tell if you were offended by my comment about the math... but if you were, it was definitely not my intention. I was just trying to show how fraudulent this is in the simplest terms possible. Unfortunately that is one of the hazards of communicating through discussion board posts. A lot gets lost in the translation.



To further comment on the original post, I will say it one last time: This has been found to NOT WORK by more than one third party laboratory. Check the link in my earlier post. The only people that still say it works are the people who sell it, and others who are mistaken. It can't work. As DP said earlier. Alternators don't produce spare electricity. Any energy they produce is done so as a direct result of loading the engine..... period.

If you're doing it for an emission benefit, that's a different story, but you are risking hydrogen embrittlement of internal engine components for reducing Hydrocarbon and Carbon Monoxide emissions, which are already pretty low in a diesel.

Joe

 

[TAbbott]

The only way it could possibly work is if it only drew current from the alternator during braking or coast down events, and then metered it into the engine during times when additional power was needed.



I doubt it could possibly create enough Hydrogen in the limited time available during such a duty cycle to do anything much at all except remove money from your pocket for its purchase.

 

[DPellegrin]

JoeBioDiesel- Not offended! You are right about communicating via Inet. Some of this stuff gets complicated and there just isn't the time. So let's take advantage of our common interests and make use of the free expression of ideas.



Best Regards,



"Be Honorable, Respectable, and Flexible" Gumby