i can have a hybrid, but not a diesel $%#@&!!!

[TLanier]

amazing.



first, i am absolutely stunned that people are more willing to spend extra money for a stupid hybrid that still doesnt get as good a mileage as a comparable diesel, or last as long.



hybrid 1. 3L 68 hp (torque? missing?) insight gets 60mpg. the batteries will prob last about 80k to 100k miles. the engine prob not much longer. if you want to pass, get out and push.



volkswagen TDi, 100 hp, 168 ft/lbs torque, 45 mpg city, 60-65 mpg highway, 300k miles easy.



a no brainer wouldnt you say? (guess my uncle, sam, has no brain. )



then why are only three diesels imported to the usa (excluding big *** pickup trucks), the vw, ONE mercedes, and the jeep liberty? there are hundreds to choose from worldwide. why is our gov willing to let us have crappy half electric moped engined hybrids whose batteries are highly toxic (how are we gonna get rid of them without a toxic mess?), but will not let me have a diesel? the vw lupo TDi in europe, same hp as the insight, but double the torque, gets 80mpg!



and hows this, we cant have diesels to choose from, but we can have a friggin chevy silverado full size pickup hybrid v8 (for cryin out loud) that gets ONE better mpg that the v8 only. it just stops the motor at stoplights? so, knowing that much of an engines wear is at startup, when the oil is at the bottom of the pan, i bet this thing lasts a LONG time with shutting down at every friggin stoplight!



if you feel i am ******, you are right. i want a diesel landy defender, gets 25mpg and is 4x4. a diesel G class benz gets over 30, and will bury a hummer. what about the cheap diesel cars in europe that get 80 mpg? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Rman]

I know one reason BMW won't release any of their diesels is that our fuel quality is so poor. The engines just can't run on the crap fuel we produce. Once the new ULSD hits the market things may change. I welcome the improvements to diesel fuel, maybe we can finally take advantage of some of the leaps in technology the european diesel market has made.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I know one reason BMW won't release any of their diesels is that our fuel quality is so poor. The engines just can't run on the crap fuel we produce. Once the new ULSD hits the market things may change. I welcome the improvements to diesel fuel, maybe we can finally take advantage of some of the leaps in technology the european diesel market has made.

Many "optimists" seen to assume that merely upgrading the refinery output will somehow "magically" improve final fuel quality as ultimately delivered to the consumer...



DREAM ON!



Many of the problems related to our poor diesel quality is directly related to problems with transport and storage - and THAT will NOT change simply because of changes made at the refinery - NOR will there even be guarantees of uniform quality of fuel produced at the refinery, UNLESS far stricter QC is established and inforced with the "newest and greatest" stuff - after all, if current quality and standards are all over the map, why would they automatically change with the new stuff?

 

[TLanier]

is it just the fuel quality which keeps us here in the usa from being able to buy more diesels? i know that navistar makes another powerstroke, the 2. 8l inline four. it makes 170 hp or so, and high 200's torque, and ford sells it in the ranger in south america... . gets mid 30's mpg. so, the 7. 3 will run fine on our "bad" diesel, but he smaller stroker will not?

 

[SRadke]

Shall we all chant? Diesel Diesel Diesel... ...



-Scott

 

[WDixon27]

i want one of the twin turbo bmw diesel v8s for my older 5 series with a 6 speed manual transmission to go with it

"The oil burner under the hood of the 740d is a 3. 9-liter V-8 that develops 235 hp at 4000 rpm and 413 pound-feet of torque at as little as 1750 rpm. Coupled to an automatic transmission, that's enough oomph to push the 740d to 150 mph while consuming less fuel than a 528i manual. "

they stuffed it in a 4200# car, i want to put one in my 1000# less car without the slushbox, now that's conservation i can live with :-laf

 

[TLanier]

i want to stuff that 2. 8l powerstroke mechanical (no stinkin computer) into a '72-'77 bronco, with an nv4500. sweet ride, at least 25mpg!

 

[67guzzler]

I'm with you TLanier. There is no reason why they can't test and certify these vehicles reliably run on B100 D6751 certified 100% biodiesel too. Then it won't matter what the fuel economy is -- If the buyer is getting 16 mph and is willing to spend more money than they'll support the american farmer all the more. It's a win/win and there aren't such alternative fuel options in the gasoline arena. Then you can bomb your brains out, make 700 hp and 1200 ft/lbs of torque and help a farmer all at the same time. Just a thought.....

 

[Rman]

Many "optimists" seen to assume that merely upgrading the refinery output will somehow "magically" improve final fuel quality as ultimately delivered to the consumer...



DREAM ON!



Many of the problems related to our poor diesel quality is directly related to problems with transport and storage - and THAT will NOT change simply because of changes made at the refinery - NOR will there even be guarantees of uniform quality of fuel produced at the refinery, UNLESS far stricter QC is established and inforced with the "newest and greatest" stuff - after all, if current quality and standards are all over the map, why would they automatically change with the new stuff?

Gary that's my point exactly. The entire fuel industry in the states is substandard compared to europe. I attribute much of that to keeping costs down. You know how so many folks hated paying over dollar for a gallon of fuel for so long. They'd have to be rolling in their graves now! This by no means is the only reason diesels aren't sold here, another biggie is people just don't like them. I've talked to guys at work that still believe diesel technology is where it was 25 years ago. It's going to talk one hell of an advertising campaign, and not to break anyone's bubble but TDR ain't gonna cut it.



Gary don't group me with the "optimists" I think the world is coming to an end, this latest hurricane is just the beginning. Wait till the glaciers move down fromt he arctic, and the earthquakes dessimate the nation

 

[gitchesum]

Many "optimists" seen to assume that merely upgrading the refinery output will somehow "magically" improve final fuel quality as ultimately delivered to the consumer...



DREAM ON!



Many of the problems related to our poor diesel quality is directly related to problems with transport and storage - and THAT will NOT change simply because of changes made at the refinery - NOR will there even be guarantees of uniform quality of fuel produced at the refinery, UNLESS far stricter QC is established and inforced with the "newest and greatest" stuff - after all, if current quality and standards are all over the map, why would they automatically change with the new stuff?

Tey are being changed Gary



When ULSD hits the market, it has a limit of 15 ppm at the pump, not the refinery.



Millions are being spent to removed dead legs in the pipelines, batching procedures and anything that may introduce sulfur into the product. When June of 06 comes around you will be running higher quality fuel than they run in Europe.

 

[TLanier]

topic.......hybrids stink

back to the topic, does anyone else but me think this whole hybrid thing is absurd? as Rman said, people dont like diesels. this is true, and is evidenced by the fact that americans are willing to spend more money on a hybrid car that still pollutes (toxic batteries anyone?), makes alot less power than a diesel, and only gets a few more real world mpg than their non hybrid gas only cousins... ... ..... and diesels get better mileage than either.



im just dumbfounded.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"When ULSD hits the market, it has a limit of 15 ppm at the pump, not the refinery.



Millions are being spent to removed dead legs in the pipelines, batching procedures and anything that may introduce sulfur into the product. When June of 06 comes around you will be running higher quality fuel than they run in Europe. "



There's FAR more to "quality" than merely the percentage of sulphur in the fuel - and my comments were aimed at IMPURITIES in fuel by the time that fuel reaches the consumer!



After all, most issues and complaints about our current diesel fuel relates to IMPURITIES that cause premature wear and failures to injection pumps, not particularly the sulphur content!



Also involved are issues like LARGE variations in cetane and other analytical components in the fuel, that currently are UNregulated or actively controlled.



June '06 is mere MONTHS away - and what are you consumers seeing taking place at YOUR local stations - massive upgrades in delivery trucks, mass storage containers and pumps - or is it all "business as usual"?



*I* sure don't see any upgrading of delivery or storage around HERE, so no real expectations that fuel purity or overall quality will be improved - less sulphur and higher price, yeah - but overall QUALITY - dream on!

 

[BigEasy]

June '06 is mere MONTHS away - and what are you consumers seeing taking place at YOUR local stations - massive upgrades in delivery trucks, mass storage containers and pumps - or is it all "business as usual"?



*I* sure don't see any upgrading of delivery or storage around HERE, so no real expectations that fuel purity or overall quality will be improved - less sulphur and higher price, yeah - but overall QUALITY - dream on!

Exactly what is wrong with the present delivery trailers, tanks, and pumps? I'd really like to hear this... apparently I've missed something.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Exactly what is wrong with the present delivery trailers, tanks, and pumps? I'd really like to hear this... apparently I've missed something.

You must have...



Bosch themselves, in a California study of available diesel fuels found that 85% of those stations tested FAILED the Bosch minimum standards for purity and quality, as related to contaminents and lubricity for their injection pumps...



Now, I'm pretty sure YOU have already seen that info posted here, but I'll gladly look it up and post it again if you like... .



And do any here REALLY think all issues of of quality and purity can or WILL be handled only at the refineries themselves, without equally strong efforts in transportation and srorage?



If so, I still have a few remaining acres of Florida swampland available...

 

[RKerner]

You must have...



Bosch themselves, in a California study of available diesel fuels found that 85% of those stations tested FAILED the Bosch minimum standards for purity and quality, as related to contaminents and lubricity for their injection pumps...



Now, I'm pretty sure YOU have already seen that info posted here, but I'll gladly look it up and post it again if you like... .



And do any here REALLY think all issues of of quality and purity can or WILL be handled only at the refineries themselves, without equally strong efforts in transportation and srorage?



If so, I still have a few remaining acres of Florida swampland available...

Are Russian diesel transports that much better than those in the US?



Are the ships carrying diesel refined here to Europe that much cleaner or quality conscious than the diesel transports here?



Is there another Bosch study where they quantified the quality of European diesel retail outlets? I see lots of info on 50ppm and 10ppm sulfur for "quality" information but not much on contaminants.



A few googles don't turn up obvious quality comparisons or deficiencies between European and US diesel. Maybe I'm missing something but I would like to understand this better. Maybe it's just like back in the 80's where gray market cars were not PC here in the states. I bet if a guy was so inclined, he could acquire a mini-diesel car and even license it here.

 

[BigEasy]

Bosch themselves, in a California study of available diesel fuels found that 85% of those stations tested FAILED the Bosch minimum standards for purity and quality, as related to contaminents and lubricity for their injection pumps...

So maybe Bosch is building the pump to be run under UNREALISTIC conditions? I wouldn't base my observations on the oil industry on info I got from a company that's looking for an excuse to cover their butts for a poorly designed product...

 

[DKarvwnaris]

So maybe Bosch is building the pump to be run under UNREALISTIC conditions? I wouldn't base my observations on the oil industry on info I got from a company that's looking for an excuse to cover their butts for a poorly designed product...

Hmmm,

The 7100 pump bosch put out for years is the most reliable setup I have seen.

If Bosch has such a quality issue, why are nearly all the diesels in Europe running their systems?



I would more blame the us consumer for the lack of diesels here. Every dealership I have been into that had a diesel version of a specific car model sat on it for weeks on end. This is no doubt due to the wonderful reputation VW and GM made for diesels in the earlier years of recent times. Nothing screams boycott like a GM 5. 7 or 6. 2 diesel.

As the sales of the TDI models increase, so will the # of the units imported.

I personally like the lack of diesels in passenger vehicles, it leaves the diesel pumps clear for my use whenever I need it.

More importantly, its hard to self destruct a soccer mom who has a cel phone strapped to her head while filling her SUV up with diesel. They need the extra help of gasoline fumes to get their name in the Darwin awards log book. How else can the world promote their self destruction without drawing too much attention? Every yuppy soccer mom gone is that much less a burdon on the fuel supply. That is a sad but true reality.

 

[biggy238]

There are companies that thrive on checking subterrainean tanks for sediment and pollutant content. The major supplier for the county of 17,000 that I live in pumps almost 30,000 gallons of diesel per week and when last checked had almost 12 inches of sludge in tanks that were 18months old. It didn't magically appear. I Imagine that fuel quality in the U. S. is substandard based on that information.



On the other hand, i'm not paying $3-$5 a gallon when I can throw on a filter every 12,000 and not worry about it.





On the original topic, One of the GM hybrids I recall looking at during it's developement reportedly had almost 300ft. lbs. available at launch from the electric motor. It makes sense considering the logic behind a diesel electric locomotive.



What I can't stand is these idiots here in rural Ky that buy hybrids. Where are you gonna get it serviced when it craps out?



I don't, however, see a problem with the toxic batteries, seeing as how our industrialized nation has been running on electric toyota fork lifts for how many years now?? It shouldn't be a problem by now.

 

[BigEasy]

Hmmm, the 7100 pump bosch put out for years is the most reliable setup I have seen.

If Bosch has such a quality issue, why are nearly all the diesels in Europe running their systems?

Are they running a vp44? I don't know the answer, just trying to learn...

 

[nickleinonen]

Are they running a vp44? I don't know the answer, just trying to learn...

i believe the previous gen VW tdi had the vp44 pump... [the new ones have EUI's in them]