Inducted into the Death Wobble club tonight (long post, sorry...)

[rmcnamee]

Hello all,

I've read numerous posts about the dredded "Death Wobble", but until now, have never seen and/or experienced it. Well tonight that all changed.



A friend of mine has been complaining about the "Death Wobble" for a few weeks now and has been trying to eliminate the problem. According to him, it all started after he installed a set of generic steel coil spacers and 315 BFGs on his stock chrome steel wheels. To date he has tried the following to fix the problem: balanced the tires (added weights to inside of the wheels only), replaced a worn out drag link joint (pitman arm end), added Bilsteins (5100s I think- the stand yellow w/ a blue boot model), yet still no fix.



So tonight he calls me and tells me he's had enough and is about ready to crash the truck into a tree (not literally). After getting to his house, have him turn the steering wheel right to left (lock to lock), while I lay under the front of the truck and everything looked good. Nothing loose, worn, etc. , so I say lets go for a ride and here's what happened.



Going in a straight line, there was a slight shimmy in the steering wheel and it feels as though the tires may need to rebalanced. All in all, not too bad. According to my friend, the condition really presents itself while accelerating through a bend in the road. So for the next test, we headed to a portion of the road, where there was a bend. From a dead stop, I got on it and began to take a left bend around 40 MPH, when all of a sudden the entire truck, side to side and front to back, starts to shach violently. I got off the accelerator, came out of the turn and as the truck delcelerated, the condition began to subside and eventually we were back to normal. When I got out of the truck, I couldn't believe what had happened. Never had I experienced something so dangerous and violent. If you're not expecting it, like I was, you could find yourself in a real pickle. Before leaving his house, I decided that I had see it from outside the truck, so we went off to the same area of road with the bend in it and here's what I saw.



Standing on the side of the road, I watched him approach the bend and all seemed fine at first, then it started. As he rounded the bend, probalby about 40 MPH, the front tires began to hop up and down and turn to the right and left. Interestingly, the rear tires started to hop up and down as well. Both the front and rear axles appeared to be "tetter-tottering". Basically, picked a desert race truck going over a set of washboards at a high rate of speed and this is kind of what it looked like.



Now my question is..... is this the condition people have come to call the "Death Wobble"? Has anyone else with a 3rd Gen. Ram experienced this? If so, how is your frontend set up (i. e. stock, spacers, spacers w/ links, coils & links, etc. )?



Any help/info you can lend would appreciated and again, sorry for such a long post.



Ryan





UPPDATE: While typing up this post, my friend called and said he had the front tires rebalanced, with weighs added to the inside and outisde of wheels. He found that 1 of the tires was 11 oz. out on the outside. According to him, straight line shimmy is gone and he just took the same bend and the truck only shakes slightly- very slightly. He'll balance out the rears tomorrow and let me know.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

I have experienced this with my truck since I installed the BFG's on my truck too. It is real bad at 80 MPH when mine comes on. I even went to the T. Rex Fox system to no avail. Then I installed a set of Goodyear MT/R radials. They are "Load Range E". Very important fact. BFG only sells a load range D tire. I no longer have the death wobble. So to test it out to be sure, I rebalance the BFG's and install them on my truck again. I have two sets of wheels so this isn't a major problem. I took a trip to Vegas on Tuesday and at 70 MPH on a downhill curve, it comes on real strong. BFG tires are not stout enough for such a heavy truck. I cannot guarantee that the Goodyear 37 12. 50/17 tires are the fix but, they have convinced me. I ordered a set today.



Greg

 

[R.M.THOMPSON]

That being true about a stiffer sidewall , would'nt another test on the suspect tire at max or higher than max pressure alter the outcome ? I have another question also , Willl the track back mis-alignment impose a abnormal load to the chassis ? Is the death wobble event an attemp to return to a steady state condition or a at the edge of a critical vibration and have been just pushed over the edge thing ? Whithout an adjustable track bar I guess we may never know !

 

[RDHamill]

I had read a few posts where some guys had determined the "death wobble" was in fact a caster shimmy.

Could the change to the coil spring set up increase caster, and cause the wobble?

I've never experainced this ( not yet anyway) but i seem to have every other front end issue. As far as I'm concerned the only parts of the steering system on a Dodge truck that are not good, are the ones between the steering wheel and the tires.

 

[Bertram65]

I have 315s no lift, never had the DW. Maybe the lift causes the change in camber.

 

[DE Jeeper]

This is a very common problem with lifted Jeep Wranglers. When you change the height in the front end you change the axle camber. You need to find a good alignment shop and have them rotate the axle back within factory spec.

 

[TexBamBam]

I am not sure that these two are the same problem... but I too have had the DW for lack of a better word, after switching to the BFG 315's. Now I hear that the DW is caused by the Ft Axle moving from side to side... I am not sure mine does that. But I hope to try the Goodyear MTR's soon. That might fix the problem. Ray

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

I have two sets of T. rex springs. The set I installed are the same length as stock. It is definatly not the lift. My truck didn't do it when I had the two inch spacers and it was a DRW truck still running 235/85/17's. Just after the BFG crappy tire syndrome. Think about it. The 315/75 17 BFG AT ko is a tire that is made for the H2 Hummer. That is a car/truck built on a 1/2 ton chevy pickup platform. They maybe weigh 5000 lbs. The tire is not strong enough to be under our trucks. I have also ruled out the air pressure deal. I have ran from 50 psi ( recommended) all the way down to 25 psi which looks almost flat. The Goodyears can run all day at 25 PSI on all four corners and handle it very well. I will let you know next week how a brand new set of Goodyears mount, balance, and ride. I will be doing the mounting myself. And the balancing.



Greg

 

[JARichard]

Hmmmm......

I have a hard time believing it is the 315's. They have a 3 ply sidewall wich would give you lateral strength.

I had the death wobble on a FORD f-250 6 speed 1998 model. I had the only standard in a fleet of six. When the truck hit 60,000 miles it started doing it. At first no one believed me. We had our own mechanic shop so he was as far as it went. Until one day the boss took my POS because his was down. Five minutes later he is back in my office white as a ghost. We trailered it to a FORD dealer. They put on a steering stabilizer and it never did it again.

I have never had the death wobble on my personal truck ( knock on wood). But the stabilizer on our vehicles is for a much lighter tire than 315's. So, unless you can prove that an after market stabilizer is better suited for a heavier tire you are shooting yourself in the foot. Another thing is are you mounting these tires on factory or aftermarket wheels. The rims on my truck are 8" wide and are not recomended by BFG. So could that be part of the problem also?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Since installing H2 wheels and 315's I had no DW.



After installing 2" leveler kit I had it once. On my truck it has to get help from a nasty bump at 75-80 mph. Only had it once because after that one time I was careful how I drove.



I increased caster angle by trial and error. No more DW. Just got back from a 1450 mile New England trip. Believe me... if it still had it, I would have experienced it on that trip. I did have probably three ocasions where I hit a nasty bump, got the shake for about one or two seconds, but it quickly subsided... . ON ITS OWN. Sure made my vacation highway driving much more comfortable knowing it was stable.



As many have told me... yes caster is a biggy. Still not 100% happy with the way this front end handles bumps at highway speeds. I will be installing a custom linked track bar this week and longer, better shocks in the near future.

 

[rmcnamee]

As far the BFGs go, I could see a "bad" set causing some problems, but I've run 35 BFGs on 2 different trucks (2001 2500 CTD w/ a 2. 5 Skyjacker lift & 2001 F-350 w/ 5. 5. Fabtech) and never had any issues. They are a load range D tire, which is a pretty stout tire and is not too far from an E rated tire.



As for caster misalignment, when my buddy installed the coil spacers, he never had the truck realigned. I too have read in the past about improper caster settings (along with worn out steering stabilizers and track bars) causing the DW. I told him to get it aligned and see what happens. IMHO, I think the extended link arms (offered by all the major suspension companies) are a necessity when adding a lift kit, whether the kit uses spacers or replacement coils. Reasons being that when add lift to the front, it pushes and rotates the front axle back and the extended links are used to reposition the axle to its stock location. When I installed my 2. 5 Skyjacker kit, I had the realigned the next day and have never had a problem WD and I've hit bumps at 90 MPH on the highway with no problems.



Thanks for all the replies

Ryan

 

[Diesel Nut]

I got to experience the DW one day hauling hay from Sacramento to Gilroy. Just a bunch in the bed, no trailer. At 70 mph I hit a bump in the road the truck just went nuts. I have never felt a more violent shake. And controlling the truck was out of the question. Off the gas, hit the jake, tried to be smooth with the brakes. Had no steering at all!!! Truck drifted across the road, off the road, and bounced off a mound of dirt. Stuck so far away from anything that my cell wouldn't work and the cb don't gofar enough(yet). So I had to drive it to the dealer in Hollister at 10 - 15 mph. Any faster and I couldn't control it. Steering was iffy at best. Took me 3 hours to get to the dealer. Broken track bar bolt. Little scary how important that little bugger is!

Haven't had a problem since they replaced the bolt.

 

[SS]

I have the same experience with tire load rating. When I had the load range C 305/85R16 Coyotes my truck had the wobble pretty severely especially when the tread was worn out. I tried a few things including steering stabilizer, rebalancing tires, lower control arms with stiffer bushings, tire pressure, and a some others. The thing that finally fixed it was the load range E 305/85R16 Coyotes - otherwise the same tire. Not one single occurance since they were installed.



I do know that lifted trucks are more prone to it and I believe it is a combination of things that make some trucks do it and others not. I still don't know if the load range E tires stopped the problem because of lateral stiffness, rotational stiffness, or the increased weight. Whatever it was, it put the "system" outside of the range where it would occur.

 

[TexBamBam]

I am running the BFG's and the only way I got mine to stop the DW was to install the rancho 9000X shocks... and set them on 5... . the ride is rought a heck but no more DW... . I still think it has a lot to do with the tires. This problem started with I had about 30K on the tires... BFG replaced two of the tires because the could not balance them... huge weight in the tire cause the tires to jump all over the place.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

We lifted my wife's 2000 Jeep (taller coil springs) and it soon developed the death wobble. We re-aligned it and it was fine after that but when it would hit, it would scare the crap out of you. Anybody who lifts their truck should automatically get the front end aligned and make sure the tires are balanced. I'm curious to see how many cases of the "Death wobble" are on stock trucks with stock tires. Mine is stock and is stable as you can ask for as fast as you want to go.

 

[TexBamBam]

I was at 4 wheel parts in Dallas and they do mods on stock new trucks. They had some come from the dealer... brand new with 3 miles on the OD. They had two that had the DW so bad they could not even drive them to the bay to work on them... anything over 3 mph and it started. This was bone stock... no mods. They called the dealer to come pick them up... could not do a thing with them. They think it is something about the rubber bushings being too lose causing the ft axle to move to the left and right.

 

[DPelletier]

Good point Coasty,

I think if we were to actually check the statistics, 90% of the DW trucks have a lift or larger tires or some other changes to the suspension geometry. I have been following, reading and researching the DW for some time now because my wife's TJ is showing signs and I have come to the following conclusions;



- DW is caster shimmy caused by improper alignment specifications. In our case the design of the front end is extremely susceptible to caster shimmy if not set up perfectly (same as the jeep front ends). The settings need to be spot on or the condition for DW is set.



- Once the condition for DW is set, if everything else is perfect; tires, shocks, all front end components and stabilizer; then the DW may not manifest itself or it may not be all that severe. If, on the other hand, you have worn components, the DW takes advantage of the weakness to manifest strongly and scare the living stuff out of you!



Many people have reported that new shocks, or tires or a drag link or steering stabilizer replacement has cured thier DW. I submit that all they have done is close the "path of least resistance" and that the predetermining underlying condition is simply waiting dormant until something wears out enough. I have often read of people that have changed a part and the Death Wobble "went away for a while" and the prestated premis would seem to fit logically with those comments and observations.



FWIW



Dave

 

[Duck]

This is a good post for all those who THINK they have the DW. When you have, you'll know it. They don't call it the DEATH Wobble for nuthin'



Mine was due to a loose torsion bar bolt. Having owned 2 trucks that have done it to me, it's my opinion that it is ALWAYS due to a loose or worn or sloppy steering component. The problem may be internal and hard as hell to find, but if you were to replace everything under the engine it would go away, guaranteed.



Unfortunately, that never happens. So to compensate, sometimes you have to go to a "better" tire.



Torque the crap out of every bolt you can find. If that doesn't do it, get those Load Range E MTR's. That's all I have to say.

 

[rbattelle]

I'm curious whether replacement control arms would fix it? Shouldn't it be illegal for a company to sell a lift that could cause death wobble? I mean, you'd think if you were a suspension company you`d want to design a system that is death-wobble proof. It certainly seems like Dodge has managed to do so (never heard of DW on a bone stock truck). Even the T-Rex setup is prone to DW!?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Good point Coasty,

I think if we were to actually check the statistics, 90% of the DW trucks have a lift or larger tires or some other changes to the suspension geometry. I have been following, reading and researching the DW for some time now because my wife's TJ is showing signs and I have come to the following conclusions;



- DW is caster shimmy caused by improper alignment specifications. In our case the design of the front end is extremely susceptible to caster shimmy if not set up perfectly (same as the jeep front ends). The settings need to be spot on or the condition for DW is set.



- Once the condition for DW is set, if everything else is perfect; tires, shocks, all front end components and stabilizer; then the DW may not manifest itself or it may not be all that severe. If, on the other hand, you have worn components, the DW takes advantage of the weakness to manifest strongly and scare the living stuff out of you!



Many people have reported that new shocks, or tires or a drag link or steering stabilizer replacement has cured thier DW. I submit that all they have done is close the "path of least resistance" and that the predetermining underlying condition is simply waiting dormant until something wears out enough. I have often read of people that have changed a part and the Death Wobble "went away for a while" and the prestated premis would seem to fit logically with those comments and observations.



FWIW



Dave

Dave I believe you are absolutely correct as I have been playing with caster and it has stopped the DW. My truck is basically brand new. I put the bigger tires on and 2" leveling kit which took it out of stock settings. I also beleive the rubber bushinged track bar doesn't help. I will be installing a custom linked bar shortly and report on the results.