Attention: TDR Forum Junkies Before I give some initial observations I want to explain my thought process on why I went with a certain injector over another. Hopefully, this write-up can help other people trying to make a similar decision.
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
After 2 years of running extrude honed injectors I was starting to get tired of the boggy feeling off-idle, constant black smoke at low rpms, and the feeling that I lost some mileage. These observations seemed to increase more and more as I BOMBed my truck and they really made me start to think about spray angles and the importance of having injectors matched to the performance level of the truck.
EXTRUDE HONED VERSUS EDM... CHOICES, CHOICES,...
I've been toying with this thought for a few months and started talking to quite a few TDR and DTR people, EDM and honed injector vendors included. Of the people I talked to, I put more weight on the folks' opinions that have run both EDM and honed injectors versus the folks that have run only EDM injectors or only honed injectors. I will say that price was an issue at first with EDM versus EH - EDM was more expensive, but when one considers returning core nozzles with EH then the price becomes somewhat closer. In the end I decided to overlook price so that I could concentrate on the performance deliverables.
I first considered some smaller 50 HP DDP or Industrial Injectors in order to gain more TST adjustability back as well as to not dump a bunch of fuel in at once to drown the engine and bog it down. Many owners were extremely happy with their DDP injectors and their solid reputation and performance gains and such have been well documented elsewhere. I was generally fairly happy with my Industrial injectors, but they did cost me some mileage - about 0. 5 mpg less than my previous DD3 injectors. On the Industrial 3-flows I think I finally figured out how the "3-flow" name came out from some recent posts on DTR in regards to only 3 of the 8 holes being honed out versus all 8 of the stock 03-04 injector nozzle being equally honed out. Does DDP do this too? I don't know - and it made me think that if only 3 of the 8 holes were honed what would that do to spray pattern? Would the spray be biased more to one side than the other? Don't know, but this really reinforced in me that the honed holes in a factory nozzle originally set up for factory performance guidelines may or may not be the most optimized for our modded trucks.
The thought of having new EDM nozzles with new optimized hole placement appealed to me, especially with the mods we run that advance timing electronically or with fuel pressure. There's a post on the 12 valve forum that Jim Fulmer did that showed the injector spray pattern on a modded truck. The spray pattern was outside the bowl because the injector wasn't matched to the engine mods. I want something that is matched, in theory, to my engine mods!
The two vendors that do this (new nozzles with new holes) are Don M and Bosio. Bosio is very well respected in the international TDI world and European common rail world, but somewhat unknown in our small Cummins world. In fact, my DD3 injectors I had before my 3-flows had Bosio Sprint tips. Bosio tips are also found on some II injectors depending on supply-and-demand. The Bosios were not on my 3-flows, but what I do know is that when I had DD3 injectors with the Bosio's my mileage was about 0. 5 mpg better than my similarly sized 3-flows with Bosch tips. So this tells me that Bosio must be doing something very right with new nozzles with new holes; Bosio just doesn't have the brand ID here with the Cummins.
The other vendor is of course Don M and he does have the crazy cult-like following :-laf to the point that I was at a dyno event 3 years ago and a NW BOMBER dude got all belligerent on me when I mentioned that I was considering some honed injectors! Anyhow, after a bunch of emailing back-and-forth with Don I finally decided on his Flux 2's. They are 100 HP rated and a slightly finish honed version of his EDM Flux 1's, but geared more towards the folks with modded CP3s. Look at Gypsyman, AK Ram, Banshee, Idaho CTD for verifiable proof that Flux 1's work at +/- 600 HP levels. Yes, I repeat, they are running "small" 40 HP injectors and getting the same dynos as I with my "big" 90 HP injectors. Don was actually trying to steer me towards Flux 1's for meeting or beating my current power levels, but the modded CP3 was the wild card since 1's weren't targeted for a modded CP3 in particular.
INITIAL RESULTS
Are the claims of less smoke and EGT true?
So far I see:
-50 degrees less EGT at cruise at 75 mph. Yes, I couldn't freakin' believe it so I went on the interstate 3 more times to verify it.
-1/2 as much smoke and the smoke is more wispy grey than thick black. Before under 1500 rpm I could black out 2 lanes of traffic. Now the smoke level is about like AK Ram's 1/4 mile videos! My wife even commented on the smoke level being a lot less!
Are the claims of same or more performance true?
So far I see:
-no boggy, blaahh feeling off-idle or off low rpms anymore. It starts pulling and feels like when I had the cam installed at sea level.
-rail pressure comes up faster and holds longer by looking at the gauge readings under various driving conditions. This seems to be supported by the fact that under the same before and after TST/Smarty levels, I have more noticeable timing rattle now, where the timing rattle comes from the fuel pressure coming on earlier (equivalent to advanced injection timing.
Next up is dyno time... hopefully by the end of February when the weather gets better. I intend to dyno on the exact same settings on this thread:
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169669
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
After 2 years of running extrude honed injectors I was starting to get tired of the boggy feeling off-idle, constant black smoke at low rpms, and the feeling that I lost some mileage. These observations seemed to increase more and more as I BOMBed my truck and they really made me start to think about spray angles and the importance of having injectors matched to the performance level of the truck.
EXTRUDE HONED VERSUS EDM... CHOICES, CHOICES,...
I've been toying with this thought for a few months and started talking to quite a few TDR and DTR people, EDM and honed injector vendors included. Of the people I talked to, I put more weight on the folks' opinions that have run both EDM and honed injectors versus the folks that have run only EDM injectors or only honed injectors. I will say that price was an issue at first with EDM versus EH - EDM was more expensive, but when one considers returning core nozzles with EH then the price becomes somewhat closer. In the end I decided to overlook price so that I could concentrate on the performance deliverables.
I first considered some smaller 50 HP DDP or Industrial Injectors in order to gain more TST adjustability back as well as to not dump a bunch of fuel in at once to drown the engine and bog it down. Many owners were extremely happy with their DDP injectors and their solid reputation and performance gains and such have been well documented elsewhere. I was generally fairly happy with my Industrial injectors, but they did cost me some mileage - about 0. 5 mpg less than my previous DD3 injectors. On the Industrial 3-flows I think I finally figured out how the "3-flow" name came out from some recent posts on DTR in regards to only 3 of the 8 holes being honed out versus all 8 of the stock 03-04 injector nozzle being equally honed out. Does DDP do this too? I don't know - and it made me think that if only 3 of the 8 holes were honed what would that do to spray pattern? Would the spray be biased more to one side than the other? Don't know, but this really reinforced in me that the honed holes in a factory nozzle originally set up for factory performance guidelines may or may not be the most optimized for our modded trucks.
The thought of having new EDM nozzles with new optimized hole placement appealed to me, especially with the mods we run that advance timing electronically or with fuel pressure. There's a post on the 12 valve forum that Jim Fulmer did that showed the injector spray pattern on a modded truck. The spray pattern was outside the bowl because the injector wasn't matched to the engine mods. I want something that is matched, in theory, to my engine mods!
The two vendors that do this (new nozzles with new holes) are Don M and Bosio. Bosio is very well respected in the international TDI world and European common rail world, but somewhat unknown in our small Cummins world. In fact, my DD3 injectors I had before my 3-flows had Bosio Sprint tips. Bosio tips are also found on some II injectors depending on supply-and-demand. The Bosios were not on my 3-flows, but what I do know is that when I had DD3 injectors with the Bosio's my mileage was about 0. 5 mpg better than my similarly sized 3-flows with Bosch tips. So this tells me that Bosio must be doing something very right with new nozzles with new holes; Bosio just doesn't have the brand ID here with the Cummins.
The other vendor is of course Don M and he does have the crazy cult-like following :-laf to the point that I was at a dyno event 3 years ago and a NW BOMBER dude got all belligerent on me when I mentioned that I was considering some honed injectors! Anyhow, after a bunch of emailing back-and-forth with Don I finally decided on his Flux 2's. They are 100 HP rated and a slightly finish honed version of his EDM Flux 1's, but geared more towards the folks with modded CP3s. Look at Gypsyman, AK Ram, Banshee, Idaho CTD for verifiable proof that Flux 1's work at +/- 600 HP levels. Yes, I repeat, they are running "small" 40 HP injectors and getting the same dynos as I with my "big" 90 HP injectors. Don was actually trying to steer me towards Flux 1's for meeting or beating my current power levels, but the modded CP3 was the wild card since 1's weren't targeted for a modded CP3 in particular.
INITIAL RESULTS
Are the claims of less smoke and EGT true?
So far I see:
-50 degrees less EGT at cruise at 75 mph. Yes, I couldn't freakin' believe it so I went on the interstate 3 more times to verify it.
-1/2 as much smoke and the smoke is more wispy grey than thick black. Before under 1500 rpm I could black out 2 lanes of traffic. Now the smoke level is about like AK Ram's 1/4 mile videos! My wife even commented on the smoke level being a lot less!
Are the claims of same or more performance true?
So far I see:
-no boggy, blaahh feeling off-idle or off low rpms anymore. It starts pulling and feels like when I had the cam installed at sea level.
-rail pressure comes up faster and holds longer by looking at the gauge readings under various driving conditions. This seems to be supported by the fact that under the same before and after TST/Smarty levels, I have more noticeable timing rattle now, where the timing rattle comes from the fuel pressure coming on earlier (equivalent to advanced injection timing.
Next up is dyno time... hopefully by the end of February when the weather gets better. I intend to dyno on the exact same settings on this thread:
https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169669
Last edited:
Thanks for picking up my error 
