Injecotrs vs Programmer

[PJay9]

If all I want to do is get a bit better milage and little more power (50 hp) and drivable without headaches and constant fiddling shouldn't I do injectors... reliable and cause no problems as far as I can tell. Out of warrantee now so not a problem.



I did a BD TC and VB with 4"exhaust and cold air in system no other changes. I know cost is more, not an issue. I am going to keep this 2004 for a good long time. Carry a camper and tow a boat. Plus daily driver as a retired fellow. Also I heard that when this is done (72k) should do a valve adjust and add a boost fooler... I have gauges, transtemp, boost and pyro after the turbo.



I appreciate all the input! THX

 

[DCreed]

post turbo add at least 200* to pyro. some 3rd gens have injector issues that =ruined motors ,so if cost is not a concern and longevity is, then a set of mild injectors should be fine for hp but milage is best from a timing box.

 

[Tomeygun]

If all I want to do is get a bit better milage and little more power (50 hp) and drivable without headaches and constant fiddling shouldn't I do injectors... reliable and cause no problems as far as I can tell. Out of warrantee now so not a problem.



I did a BD TC and VB with 4"exhaust and cold air in system no other changes. I know cost is more, not an issue. I am going to keep this 2004 for a good long time. Carry a camper and tow a boat. Plus daily driver as a retired fellow. Also I heard that when this is done (72k) should do a valve adjust and add a boost fooler... I have gauges, transtemp, boost and pyro after the turbo.



I appreciate all the input! THX

I think for the hp gain you are looking for, just get some type of programmer / Chip --- the hastle of injectors may be be worth it for 50hp gain...

And the chip/programmer would be able to be removed where as the injectors would be much harder / time consuming to remove

 

[KFranco]

Depends I guess. Maybe some of the guys with injector upgrades only can chime in. I have an edge ez box. Comes with boost elbow and programming performs boost fueling. It's great for when I tow. Definitely notice the extra torque and egt's are held in check. However, when I don't tow I remove it. I don't like the way the truck accelerates with the edge ez when I'm not towing. When I'm unloaded the acceleration is not as smooth as stock. So I just remove it when I'm not towing. I can live without it when I'm not in tow but definitely can't live without it when I'm in tow.



I'm wondering though if injecters are my next upgrade. Maybe they provide smoother acceleration when not towing. I'll have to research this soon.



Anyway, I hope some members will chime in for ya who just run injectors so you can make an informed decision. Happy retirement

 

[RMalone]

Problem is, almost no one has "only" injectors. I too think you would be best off with a mild box like an EZ or VA 3. 1, 40-50hp from pressure shouldn't trash your injectors and it is far cheaper than the cost of injectors especially if you pay someone to do the install.



If you go injectors stick with something in the 40-60hp range. My truck with Flux 1's is very drivable with the boxes turned off, even with the sps66. Don't get me wrong it still feels like it got neutered, but it's drivable and light years ahead of stock nozzels and the 66. I would think that Flux 1's and a stock turbo with no pressure or duration (timeing would still be nice though) would be a very good mild bump in hp but pretty expensive

 

[KParsons]

inj. maybe

i was thinking the same thing too. i am still in warranty 06. but just a set of very good injectors might be a good thing for a stock truck. kp

 

[betterthanstock]

Problem is, almost no one has "only" injectors.

Well, I am almost no one.

Except for the rokktech timing sensor, muffler, and air filter.

My 03 is very happy and hopefully reliable with the DDP injectors. I went for 26. 5 lph, or 33% torque increase (dynoed right on).

(I took advantage of the sale DDP had 2 years ago. )

One of my friends with auto has 27 lph injectors + sensor + exhaust + upgraded dunrite transmission.



Mileage does increase about 0. 5 mpg, with lots more fun, and no smoke whatsoever past 10 psi boost. Excellent for towing.



What's your Max EGT now? It will go up with any power upgrade. Mine was 950 before (after all the other mods but injectors), 1200-1250 max now (on long hills). With a 6000 lb trailer, I can pass everyone on the freeway uphill (except for sports cars of course) at about 1000-1100 degrees. Even on the longest california hills.



I've tried on a VanAAken duration box previously, so I know the difference between injectors and electronics.

 

[KFranco]

betterthanstock,



Is the acceleration smoother with just injectors versus a box for you? I have the edge ez and can't stand the way it makes the cummins accelerate while I'm not in tow. I do enjoy the extra torque it provides while towing though.

 

[Matt S]

Problem is, almost no one has "only" injectors.

I'm another no one. I have the 90hp injectors from that same deal a while ago. I also tow in the 7k range in So Cal with no heat or power issues. I can get the truck hot if I really lug it or if I rev it out. I don't have any other mods other than the injectos and the Amsoil air filter. The injectors are a very smooth power increase. They give more power through out the power band. It wasn't as peaky as the Bully Dog. I can't run the Bully Dog with the injectors on the stock clutch.

 

[PJay9]

If you had to do it again and there was not a special going on... would you put in the 50HP units? Then would the issue with programmers be solved or lessened.

 

[Matt400]

If all I want to do is get a bit better milage and little more power (50 hp) and drivable without headaches and constant fiddling. I am going to keep this 2004 for a good long time. Carry a camper and tow a boat. Plus daily driver as a retired fellow.

I read that as a VA 3. 1, check here:

van Aaken Developments -The van Aaken SmartBox™ C3. 1



I ran that box on a 235hp 03 SO and it made it drive the same as my 325hp 05. Its hard to beat a safe, adjustable on the fly 0-65 hp increase. If you have your camper & boat in tow and see the EGT's are a little too warm just turn the knob down a notch. I found I could never run too hot towing on the middle setting.



I have never tried injectors but the one thing that scares me is a few years latter after the investment. . I need one injector and either the company is gone or they no longer have "that" model and instead I need to go for a set all over again so they all match.

 

[betterthanstock]

betterthanstock,



Is the acceleration smoother with just injectors versus a box for you? I have the edge ez and can't stand the way it makes the cummins accelerate while I'm not in tow. I do enjoy the extra torque it provides while towing though.

It's very smooth and very torquey right off of idle. Very fast spool up, with a puff of smoke if I get on it hard, then clear above 10 psi. It's almost impossible to stall the engine in first gear with a heavy 12K trailer. It can spin the tires with the trailer hooked up, from idle.

 

[betterthanstock]

I have gauges, transtemp, boost and pyro after the turbo.

I would plug the hole, and move the pyro before the turbo. That way you don;t have to guess at the preturbo temp.

 

[PJay9]

I would plug the hole, and move the pyro before the turbo. That way you don;t have to guess at the preturbo temp.

As longas the temp doesn't go over 1250 after, then isn't i where it should be? I hear so many pros and cons!!

 

[DCreed]

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! 1250 is PRE-TURBO!!!

 

[RMalone]

Depends on who you ask, some say 1500deg pre-turbo all day is fine,

WAY to hot for me!! I would be leery of 1250post turbo (seems like Cummins says 1150deg post-turbo but I'm not sure), but guys do it all the time. You hear some talk of guys putting an egt probe on their stock 3rd gen and finding out they put 30k on the truck at 1350-1450 pre-turbo on long pulls. I prefer to cap egt at 1300deg pre-turbo, call me a sissy but safe is better than molten aluminum in my book.



Oh and guys I did say "almost" no one, sorry for any disrespect.

In my defense you guys did validate my comment that mild injectors and stock turbo would be nice. But for someone that only wants 50hp, a VA 3. 1 is far cheaper and eliminates the chance of a botched injector install. Oh and the VA has ONE connection to the truck, the ecm harness, you don't even need to run power and ground, it's in there. That said, I'll give up my VA before I give up the flux1's.

 

[KFranco]

As longas the temp doesn't go over 1250 after, then isn't i where it should be? I hear so many pros and cons!!

I'm with RMAlone. 1300 pre-turbo:-{}. The consensus I get IMO from searching TDR is 1200-1300 pre-turbo. Better safe than sorry. Has cummins stepped up to plate with actual data on what is the limit on egt for our trucks?





BTW

Did you guys get issue #58 yet cause mine hasn't shown up?

 

[betterthanstock]

I'm with RMAlone. 1300 pre-turbo:-{}. The consensus I get IMO from searching TDR is 1200-1300 pre-turbo. Better safe than sorry. Has cummins stepped up to plate with actual data on what is the limit on egt for our trucks?

NOx forms above 2300 deg F. , and we know that they retard timing and now use EGR to lower combustion temp. (to lower Nox). So that means, actual combustion temperature is around 3000 deg. F. Aluminum melts at about 1200. There is cooling oil on the other side of the piston. The oil burns at about 350-400 deg. F.

So if you mess with stock timing, the EGT is not directly related to the factory EGT. By burning hotter, or for longer, more heat can get transferred to the piston, so it's everyone's guess as to what is safe. I have read many reports of molten pistons, from people who said they were towing at 1200-1300. Others say they went to 1500 in the quarter mile, with no damage. But they do not know if the piston gets thinner, or cracked on top, every time they do that, and then it may fail when it seems to not be too hot.

I think a couple people have installed ceramic coated pistons, so we will wait and see how those hold up.