Injector Types Question

[tugboatphil]

I'm always reading posts that refer to a type of injector and have tried my best to figure out what is being referred to. I don't mind appearing stupid, but usually hold out as long as I can.



Would someone (or several) of our more smarterer folks please explain what the different kinds of injector upgrades are available for our trucks? (POD, DD-?, etc... )



Don't worry about making it too simple for even an idiot, your efforts won't be wasted.



Thanks!

 

[hdm48]

Now there's a good question. Are you looking for the technical issues pertaining to each type or flow rates or power expected?



This ought to be a good one.



Now if you want the simplified version,,



The injector is the little thingy that is connected to the right handed frammus the is controled by that really ugly thingamabob behind the spinning whatzit. When you hit the throttle, a cable tells the ugly thingy to squirt more fuel into the really big up and down goers to make a bang that magicaly pushes the truck.

If nuthing happends when you push the thottle, It's broken.

If it's not broken, then everything is working and you don't have anything to worry about.



I believe it was once said,,

You asked for it.



Dave

 

[dpuckett]

THe PODs (Prince Of Darkness) are in reference to Lucas lightning that a shop had that constantly left them in the dark. Forget who it was, but they post here. 4 hole tip; sac type (not sure about this, please clarify, pastor) PODs add 50hp/ 105lbft to intercooled trucks; 28(?) hp/ 55lbft to non intercooled trucks, or somewhere thereabouts. I guess that would be at stock fuelling? Or is it regardless of pump settings? Seems that more fuel per stroke would net more power (increase) than stock settings. Smoke like a freight train at more aggressive fuelling.



PWs are the Power Wagons, aka Bosch 185s. Now more expensive than DDs were, or EDMs are now, thanks to price gouging by Bosch and Dodge. 5 hole tip; one less than stock intercooled; one more than stock non intercooled. PWs add about 30hp/ 75(?)lbft to intercooled trucks. They are about even in non intercooled trucks.



DD- Diesel Dynamics. No longer made for first gens trucks, or so I've read here. Tips formed by extrude honing- running a super fine abrasive through the spray holes in the tips to smooth them out and make them bigger to flow more fuel, with better atomization and less smoke and EGT. Came in varying levels- I-IV, I believe they were, as memory best serves. DDIIIs out flow PODs.



EDM- Electronic Discharge Machining. Starting with a BLANK tip, they use a tiny electrode to cut holes in the tips at angles and numbers to match the engine design and power desired. They are made of an alloy, and are harder than stock Bosch tips, needle seats better than stock; usually have more holes, making a smoother spray than Extrude Honing, or so I've been told. Come in "Mach" series- Mach I, II, III, IV, etc. Supposed to reduce EGT, add bottom end torque, and increase MPGs. Guess I'll find out next week- have a set from Rip Rook on the way- ship Friday or Monday.

Some of the performance injectors have a higher pop pressure than stock; effectively retarding timing, or more correctly, the time injection into the cylinder begins; so a timing advance of a degree or two may help reduce smoke and lag, if needed.



That is my knowledge of First gen injectors. Please feel free to add, clarify, or correct anything I may have missed or messed up.



www.dieseldynamics.com

www.f1diesel.com

Daniel

 

[hdm48]

Wow Daniel, you must be hangin' around Pastor Bob too much. That was a nice long reply and very informative.

Wish I had thought of it instead of my smart-alec responce.



Note to self: get better drugs before replying to threads.

 

[JLEONARD]

Daniel,

Bravo!!Oo.

Nice summary. I knew you were paying attention!!

I particularly like the way you included the comparison to our often forgotten non intercooled models. .

Jay

 

[Greenleaf]

I thought it funny.

Thanks for asking Tugboat. I learned something. Didn't know the PW's and 185's the same thing. Go figure.

you must be hangin' around Pastor Bob too much.

:-laf This could be a subject for a future post by someone so inclined, ayh.



Greenleaf

 

[JSchlachta]

Here is a picture of a used Bully dog injector tip (50 hp ). I do not know how reliable the source was though so I am going to have them checked out before putting them in. I am not sure if the origional injectors are still in the truck, they still have the black paint on them. Scary to think that they may have been in there for 270,000 miles. I will take a picture of them after they are removed. Any one else have pictures of the tips of their performance injectors? It would be good to have then on the site to help identify them and to look for problems.



Oo.



Does anyone have a picture of a stock tip?

 

[tugboatphil]

Dave,



I'm still looking for thingamabob in the shop manual... . I know it's there somewhere.



Dan,



That was exactly what I was looking for in an answer!! It never occurred to me that the letters were for different companies. Are you an instructor of some type? If not, consider a career change. Thanks a lot!!

 

[Desperado]

I took some pic's of my Mach 3 EDM's but the holes are so small you can't see they even with a magnifying glass they are hard to see, they have 8 holes my old 215's only had 5 holes. I don't know how much HP they gave me but the seat-o-meter is now on tilt I can't wipe the off my face

 

[dpuckett]

I'll take a picture of the stock injectors next week when I change them out. I'm looking for an increase in mpgs more than anything. Stock intercooled injectors look similar to the one pictured above, but have 6 holes spaced evenly around the tip, instead of the 5. I was told by a man at Bully Dog last year that the first gen injectors are NOT honed like the 2nd gen injectors are. Pretty sure they are 185s. Which wouldnt be so bad as long as they are balanced. One thing I noticed about my 91 is that the 4 holes are not evenly spaced; seems to be a "dead" spot between the hoes that would come on the left side of the cylinder as it sits in the head.



tugboatphil-

No, I'm not an instructor, just pay attention in class and have a steel trap for a memory



Desperado-

I noticed that you have the 3K GSK- what would your truck turn before that? The only 12v 2nd gens I have driven had the 215 pump; one 97 with 279K on original everything turned 3200 before I backed out of it.

 

[Old Smoky]

Daniel made a good summery of the most common injectors available for the first gens. There are several other options out there if you look around, or have something custom made.



Just for clarification, and to briefly touch on some other points, the POD's have a LARGE-sac type nozzle. This means that in the tip of the nozzle, where the spray holes are, there is a small cavity where a tiny amount of fuel will remain after injection. This tiny amount of fuel will insufficiently burn later in the combustion process, which will basically create more smoke. This style of nozzle is "old school" technology. When coupled with four large spray holes (POD), this type of nozzle is relatively inefficient. I say relative because with the proper setup, and sane driving, they will not only make big power, but can also net good fuel economy, while not smoking too much. As an example, with my setup including POD's (slightly altered nozzle and holder) I can get 19mpg driving 70mph on the freeway with winter fuel. Driving slower with summer fuel mileage is about 20-23. 5 on the highway(some say I dirve like an old man). But there is also the potential to get poor economy if you have a lead foot. Idle smoke may also be a concern.



The DD3+ injectors are still available (although not listed on the Diesel Dynamics website). They are a stage 3 nozzle that is used in the second gen 12v stage 3 injectors, but have been extrude honed, and swapped to a first gen holder. These are an excellent injector. They make good power, and don't create too much smoke. I don't know how much power these add over stock because I didn't have any stock injectors to check against when I was dynoing them. They do however make about 10hp less than my POD's for comparisons sake. So 50+hp. No real downside to these. Cost is up around that of the newly priced 185's. There are a couple members here running them that say they are very happy with the results.



The EDM's have become quite popular for good reason. I have installed several sets with good results. I have had limited dyno time with them though. I am currently doing some testing with different configurations to see what will work best with the first gens. We are going for the big power version.



The same injector will act differently when used with different pump settings, etc. 185's are clean, can be quite nasty if run with a heavily fueled pump. Kind of like how a turbo will add a different amount of power depending on how heavily overfulled the engine is at the time. I saw an HX40 add 140hp one time, where on my rig it added 20hp (which is about normal). I will not name who stuck with a bone stock HY-9 WAY too long.



Like anything, it is hard to say what is the "best. " It really just depends on your setup, what the goals are, and budget.



Mike

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by dpuckett





Desperado-

I noticed that you have the 3K GSK- what would your truck turn before that? The only 12v 2nd gens I have driven had the 215 pump; one 97 with 279K on original everything turned 3200 before I backed out of it.

dpuckett, My 1995with stock GS would only turn 2700 RPM's, so the 3K GSK sure made a big difference and would do it again (should have done it a long time ago) Hoping to make it to the mid 300 HP range.

 

[Paychk]

Originally posted by hdm48

Note to self: get better drugs before replying to threads.

Which nitrous or propane or a cocktail of both?