injectors rusted shut

[KevinO]

A buddy of mine has an 03 that has been in the shop for about two weeks till yesterday they found the injectors rusted shut and blamed it on water in the fuel but the light never came on. Now the dealer and district guy says that isn't covered under warranty (he has 34k) on the truck. They want to replace the lift pump, injection pump, and all the injectors for $5k. He called the 800 number for chrysler and the lady said she wasn't familiar with diesels and that is the only number he can talk to about not being warranty. Has anybody else heard of the injectors rusting and would it take out everything they say needs replaced?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I sounds to me like the dealer let it sit with water in the fuel for two weeks. .



It looks like you buddy is in for a huge headache or a first rate screwin' #@$%!. Either way I feel for him.

 

[jwilliams3]

What a bunch of crap!



Real question is WAS THERE EVER REALLY A WARRANTY???

 

[BHolm]

The truck is clearly under warranty. If the light never came on, and that can probably be verified via the trucks computer, then how was the owner to know? I would fight that one all the way.



My '03 QC cooked a transmission about a month ago. The trans temp light never came on. They blamed a failed fan switch for allowing the temp to get to high but NEVER tried to get me to pay. I take that back, they wanted me to pay of the new cooler and lines because the transmission contaminated those parts. A simple, "NO, I don't think so" solved that and it was all covered.



Why was it sitting there for two weeks?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I agree it should be under warranty. The fact that the dealer and the rep are trying to blame the owner is beyond me. If the water had been diagnosed and purged in a timely manner I be no damage would have occurred.



A certified mechanic and a dealer shouldn't need 2 weeks to troubleshoot a problem.



If there are no codes being thrown by electronics my first inclination would be the fuel or fuel system (filter etc. . ). The filter assembly has a drain spout on it. It's extremely easy to check.



I have no faith in 'ASE Certified' anything.





FWIW,

Mark

 

[KevinO]

The dealer had it for two weeks because they couldn't find the problem and had their computer hooked over the internet to STAR. It threw a code and he checked it before it went to the dealer and it was the cam sensor. i wouldn't think it would take out the injector pump and lift pump too unless they just cranked it forever trying to get it to start.

 

[sag2]

Before you second guess the dealer you need some more information. Did the truck just die, did it run bad and die, did he just fuel it up?

For a no start, you would check for fuel. First at the lift pump, then at the injection pump, then at the connector tube. Ok, if you have fuel to the tube, you assume the injector has fuel correct?

No way to actuate the injector with the scan tool, so you assume it is working. In this case a bad assumption. So all you guys second guessing the dealer, what would you have done differently? Would you assume all six injectors were bad? What are the chances of that?

For those of you that have never had to diagnose something like this, when you are working on a warranty problem, you do not assume you are going to see something unusual. You are looking for a defective part, not six damaged parts.

The hardest one to diagnose is when the customer puts gas in it. You can follow all the diagnostic books in the world, everything checks ok, but it won't start. But most times you assume it has fuel. Again, a bad assumption.

This is an insurance claim, not warranty. DC did not contaminate the fuel, so it is not their problem. And the filter and light are not fool proof. Run it long enough and water will pass through the system. Again we are assuming it was just water. Was it something more corrosive?

So think before you say he was screwed, and try to get all the facts. I may be all wrong, but you have to look at both sides of every story.

 

[swalls]

What a load of cr*p. Look folks you simply are not going to "rust injectors shut. " You can have water or debris damage to any type of injector, but in 30+ years of diesel service, I have NEVER seen a single injector "rusted shut. " Injector nozzles open by extreme pressure differential. . it would be about impossible to run enough water through them to rust them shut; I mean the engine simply would not be running by that time, because they just won't run on water. I have seen injectors that would not open due to severe internal scoring between the pintle and the nozzle tip, and 99% of those had debris in them from an injection pump failure (the debris gets pumped downstream, naturally. ) I have seen a a very few injectors that would not open due to severe overheating of the tips caused by operating without coolant.

(BTW, Has your buddy EVER changed the fuel filter on this rig? It would look really bad for his case if the fuel filter bowl was about 1/2 full of water, to say the very least. ) BUT If the water is there, but the light does not come on, he has a leg to stand on. If the dealer tests it with a little water and the light comes on... uh-oh.

If however there was NO water in the bowl, he is home free, IMHO. Case closed... Dodge should have to pay for it.

On the surface, this sounds like another case of the inherent problem with the Bosch CRD fuel injection system. You have all seen the Bosch study on inadequate American diesel fuel vs European diesel. . who would design a system to run fine on "perfect" fuel, and then knowingly release it for use in a country where THEY know the fuel supply is NOT up to snuff?

I will look up the link and post it at the end of this post.

This case also has that familiar rotten odor of STAR and a poor dealer are trying to gyp somebody once again. That is the major reason I do not currently own a 3rd gen Dodge, or a Ferd or a Chebby either!

Here's one link from just a few days ago: http://www.heavydutytrucking.com/2003/10/078a0310.asp

Here's another one: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf

 

[KevinO]

He changes his filter about every 10k we put a new filter in a few days earlier because it started to not run above an idle and the problem went away and then it wouldn't start so he took the fuel lines off the tank to the lift pump and blew them out cleaned everything put another new filter in and still wouldn't start. If there were enough water to tear up the injectors I would think that the light would come on. Gasoline was never in the tank. He is waiting on the district guy to call him back when the dealership says he gets a chance.

 

[GWoody]

Hey Swalls, good articles, makes me feel a little better about the $$$$$$ I spent on the 3 micron Air Dog system.

 

[BHolm]

sag2, I don't think anybody was concerned about the diagnosis process of this problem. Though I also think that injectors rusted shut is a huge load of bunk. The concern is that they have not provided the warranty coverage that was supposed to come with the truck. I think we all understand that the dealer doesn't always control the situation in a case like this.



As for the chances of all six injectors going bad... . why don't you pose that question over on the duramax site. GM makes it a habit of replacing all eight, pretty much everytime. They are running pretty much the same injectors the 3rd gens have. Having owned two of those trucks and read that board for years, I would say it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see them all go at once.



Then the claim that the light isn't foolprooof. Right BUT, that is the safety mechanism, the owner has no other indicator of a problem. Your answer seems to be "tough cookies" to that one. I don't think it should , or does work like that. Looks to me like the owner took very good care of the truck, more than the "reasonable and prudent" might even. That brings it back and dumps it squarely in DC's lap. I am sure they are not looking forward to spending the money to fix his truck but they should have though of that before installing this fuel system in a production rig and sending it to customers.



As for our diesel being THE problem, I think the problem still lies with Bosch. The Mercedes-Benz 400cdi engine, 4. 0L twin turbo common rail diesel, has had MAJOR fuel system problems in Europe. It is too finicky for the supposedly superior euro diesel fuel as well. It is a system with ISSUES no matter where it is used. I can't figure out why they don't just better the filtration systems if they want to run such tight tolerances in the fuel system. Seems that a 2 micron filter is a big help.



The problem is well known, has been for years. If Bosch and the manufacturers can not fix what is wrong before they sell it to consumers, they deserve every warranty claim they get.

 

[rbattelle]

Was the engine stock? And I mean bone stock. For it's entire life?



-Ryan

 

[Fireman]

For God's sake, tell your friend about the vents on top of the tank. Water in the fuel could be DCs fault! Did he check to see if his WIF sensor was even hooked up from the factory? Mine wasn't, and I didn't know it untill the truck wouldn't run. Sure have been hearing alot about injectors and pumps being ruined by contaminated fuel lately.



Fireman

 

[swalls]

As for our diesel being THE problem, I think the problem still lies with Bosch. The Mercedes-Benz 400cdi engine, 4. 0L twin turbo common rail diesel, has had MAJOR fuel system problems in Europe. It is too finicky for the supposedly superior euro diesel fuel as well. It is a system with ISSUES no matter where it is used. I can't figure out why they don't just better the filtration systems if they want to run such tight tolerances in the fuel system. Seems that a 2 micron filter is a big help.



The problem is well known, has been for years. If Bosch and the manufacturers can not fix what is wrong before they sell it to consumers, they deserve every warranty claim they get.

That's telling it straight up BHolm. I couldn't agree more Oo. Oo.

 

[KevinO]

He talked to the district rep again and he said he would go look at the truck one more time and get back to him. The rep said they found more water in the fuel line and would not warranty it. He blew down the fuel lines and checked to make sure fuel was flowing before he even had the tow truck come get it so there is no way water was in it and it had a fresh tank of fuel. The rep finally gave him his number to call and discuss it with him today it's been close to 2 weeks and he finally gets the guys number. The rep keeps telling him to turn it into the insurance company. It does say in the warranty that water in fuel is not covered so i guess chrysler can use that to cancel everybody's motor warranty whether the fuel light worked or not.

 

[rbattelle]

I really doubt it's possible for an injector to "rust shut". Especially with the engine running.



-Ryan

 

[Russknh]

CHECK FUEL TANK VENTS !!! If they are not caped off get a good atty and kick their butts--this crap has gone on long enough and star has to have some knowledge of this by now

 

[Hemiless]

I'm with Ryan on this one I see know way an injector could rust shut with the engine running. If they keep giving him the run around ask them who his Lawyer should contact about the Lawsuit.