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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) intermittent limp mode/ low power

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Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.



I am experiencing an intermittent low power problem with my 99 2500 24V with 160k miles on it. After cold start (say 4+ hours off), the truck runs REAL rough and produces LOTS of blue smoke on throttle up. Once in a while running the throttle up hard after a few seconds will bring everything back to normal, other times throttle will go to the floor and engine will not get past say 1500 RPM (lots of blue smoke). Key off and restart immediately returns things to normal 8 times out of 10. Same thing occasionally happens after about an hour at fairly constant highway speeds. It feels like the truck goes into “limp home mode”. Slowing to an idle, even for a second will often fix things. If not, key off and restart usually will.



The first occurrence was at highway speed, as described, on the first trip after an oil change. Problem first appeared 1500mi ago.



I have run a Blue Chip Fuel Management System for about 60k mi, and the problem remains with the FMS installed or at home on the bench. Problem remains with or without cruise control on and with or without OD. When the FMS is in and the problem occurs, it is clear that the VP44 fueling is stopping at 16. you can go lower but no higher, no matter how hard you push the pedal:(



Radiator/ oil levels constant, no water in oil nor oil in water. Code often set is 0216 (injection pump timing malfunction). A code related to turbo boost low signal sets occasionally. Both codes seem unrelated to presence of the FMS.



I started by replacing the lift pump (as pressure at WOT was marginal and it was getting ready to go, have been through 4 of those now and I at least know what that problem looks like). I moved on to new injectors (because hey, there was an outside chance it could have been them, and why not take the chance to end up with some more HP in the worst case). I then bit the bullet for the 3rd VP 44 (original had about 95k, second 65k) as I kept getting that 0216 code. I thought I had it licked, but did not. So Bosch has a dandy good VP44 to rebuild. Finally, I looked at the MAP output signal on a digital volt meter. It looked like voltage would drop for a split second on throttle up, and only when the problem was occurring. I was sure that I had found it. New MAP and same problem.



Deficiencies I believe unrelated but running out of ideas: No speedo under 20 MPH for last 25k. Brake and ABS lights on (good pedal and pads/ linings, check every 5k) for last 30k. When keying my 33mHz fireband radio, full throttle acceleration retarded.



Ideas??????? ECM? IAT?



Sorry for the long post, but you guys are good and need the details.
 
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Ok, sounds to me like a HUGE timing problem. On any diesel, if the timing is either retarded, or way advanced, it will smoke heavily (blue / black) . If I'm not mistaken, the ECM uses signals from the Intake air, Engine Coolant, and ambient air temperature sensors to calculate timing advance. Does your coolant temp gauge work properly? Coolant temp sensor could be bad (heard of this in a few computer conrolled trucks).



Other things to check would be for a loose connection or broken wire on or around the ECM and PCM. Also, timing advance is controlled by fuel pressure. As there any way that you could have gotten something in the fuel system that may cause the advance to stick? Bad fuel in the past? When is the last time you changed the fuel filter? Sounds kinda like what happens when they stop up. That would also explain the timing malfunction code being set.



If none of the above solves the problem, I'd say take it to a dealer you trust, and have them run diagnostics on it. If there is a Cummins dealer around, I'd try them first.



And your radio, that could have something to do with it. I tried running a linear amp on my Cobra CB radio, but it would kill the engine when I keyed up. The amp has since been moved to the rear of cab.



Hope any of this helps. If you happen to think of any more symptoms, lemme know! Good Luck.
 
Gizmo 007,



Thanks for the quick reply, I will look for wiring problems (again) first thing tomorrow. I will pay particular attention to the coolant temp sensor (and have a look at its output during warm up). At least it is something new to look at :) I will also throw another filter on it, just to be sure. It isn't showing on the gauges but... well you know. thanks again.



Brian
 
Originally posted by CstlEng

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.



After cold start (say 4+ hours off), the truck runs REAL rough and produces LOTS of blue smoke on throttle up. Once in a while running the throttle up hard after a few seconds will bring everything back to normal, other times throttle will go to the floor and engine will not get past say 1500 RPM (lots of blue smoke). Key off and restart immediately returns things to normal 8 times out of 10. Same thing occasionally happens after about an hour at fairly constant highway speeds. It feels like the truck goes into “limp home mode”. Slowing to an idle, even for a second will often fix things. If not, key off and restart usually will.



I thought I had it licked, but did not.



*No speedo under 20 MPH for last 25k.

*Brake and ABS lights on



When keying my 33mHz fireband radio, full throttle acceleration retarded.






Symptoms. I had the EXACT same symptoms



Read story here. https://www.turbodieselregister.com...11403&perpage=15&highlight=spark&pagenumber=1



All the problems you are having, I had, although an injection pump solved the problem. TO get my truck to clear up,, I just heldt the "go" pedal down until it cleared up.



When you say you thought you had it licked,, Did the problem go away? or were you just out $1,300+?



I had an intermittent miss/low power/hard start (ask TxDieselKid :) ) while going to Thunder in Muncie back in July. I spent $1,300 for a new VP44 (Thanks Piers) and $350 to have it installed by Blue Chip Diesel (Thanks Tim) (Not to mention a PDR HX-40 I NEEDED to have :D ) plus a Blue Chip Pump Cover :cool: Turned out the problem was an ECM that had been soaked from sloppy fuel filter changes, and the pins that were going into the ECM were not making good conact,, so with engine vibration the VP44 was not getting proper signals to inject.

You might want to check that the ECM "pins" are pushed firmly into into their connections/slots.



Personally, if the blue smoke, missing, and low power (Just like I had, return to idle, full power re0gained) isn't a bad VP-44,, I'm at a loss.



Symptoms of no speedo below 20MPH and Brake/ABS lights on are an indication of a bad RWSS (Rear Wheel Speed Sensor)



Gary - KJ6Q had the same problem, albeit more exxagerated, in his '02 with RF noiose into the 'puter :)



Try this, https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61332



Hope this helps.
 
Merrick,



Thanks for getting back so quick.



When you say you thought you had it licked,, Did the problem go away? or were you just out $1,300+?



It seemed to go away for a day or 2 around town, but it came back after 3 hours on the highway. So I think I gave bosch a perfectly good pump to reman... minus the darn 5 point dimpled torx cap screws on the cover plate that I drilled a while ago. Can't even get the right driver for them from McMaster Carr:)



I will look real hard at the ECM connections as my fuel filter changing methods (and the stock drain tube) certainly have rained a lot of fuel over the area over the years. I agree that Tim and Chip have been big help over the past year that I have been working with them.



Saw KJ6Q's thread and am picking up some extra chokes this weekend. That problem sort of dropped to the back of the line when this started up... but you never know, someone might have said... "oh, you never said you used an am in your truck... I had the exact same problem and it happened when I keyed up on a salty road the first time and it caused this problem in the ECM" and found that everything was related, no matter how unlikely I would have thought. So I put it all in, just in case.



It could be a second VP44... bad from the box. But I want to make sure that before I try to return it on warraty (or put down another 1300 clams through my own warranty service:) )that I have exhausted every other possibility. It is not fair to try to return parts if they aren't bad, or if I am causing the problem, no matter how much I hate the makers of the VP44. after all, at this point I don't know if the one I just took off was even bad.



You confirmed the direction I was leaning for the speedo/rwal/brake thing. When I am crawling around down there I will see if I can at least fix that... finally:)



thanks for the ideas

Off to get dirty... . will let you know what I find!
 
Speedo is now 100%. Thanks Merrick.



I reached up to feel how the plug unplugged and I almost touched it before the sensor fell apart in my hand, LOL. My stealer actually had one in stock. 35 with tax. I am happy:) Tomorrow I will try to get the dash lights off w/ the battery trick. Just wanted to enjoy sucess for a while today, had little lately so had to savor it.



As for the real problem, I pulled off the 50 pin on the ECM and the hex bolt was about to fall out on its own. When apart, the inside was a little wet at one end. CRC to get rid of the water and old dielectric grease, electrical cleaner to get rid of the CRC, new grease, back together. Now this jars the memory and I look back in my log, and 4 days before the problem first appeared we had some real high tides/ flooding around here. Should have remembered Salt water and electric don't mix. So put it all back together and have not had a problem (yet at least) and I was driving around all day. So we will see over the next few days.



I must have checked the MAP, TPS, IAT etc connections 100 times, never thought of their other end. Thanks so much. Should have asked sooner. But then I might not have had an excuse to get the new injectors:)



Will keep you posted,

Brian
 
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Thanks for everyones input, we are now at 100% for the last few days... we got it!:cool: :) :) ;) :p Merrick, stop by for a cervesa next time you are in the Northeast. Brian
 
had all the same probsss

greeting. . had all the same issues. . 10,000 miles later STAR approved a rebuilt VP44. . under warrantee. . FIXED in 4 hours. . truck screams. . no more limp. . etc... seems to be a cold solder problem in the VP's electronics. . Regards

Sam
 
I am glad you figured out your problem. As I said above, I thought it was the VP44 fairly early on, but this time the VP44 was OK. Unfortunately, it cost me $1300 to find out that the pump I traded for core was good. Merrick correctly surmized that I probably had a loose connection somewhere, and after I found it and almost 10k miles later, all is still well.
 
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