Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Is KDP a problem in 98.5 ISB's??

[C. Harlan]

There is this little girlie whom I am sort of talking to, who drives a 98. 5 3500 ISB, and I told her about the KDP, but wasnt sure if it was a concern in this year model. . I also know about the bad blocks, and need the serial #'s for which to tell if it is a killer block or not... Some of y'all overvalved boys chime in and help me out here!



-Chris-

 

[MUDDY]

weve done many kdp's at our events and have witnessed the pin on several 98. 5 and 99s that have moved outward.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Yes it is and the KDP jig fix works great on them as well as the 24v. I took care of mine on my '98. 5 a year and a half ago.

 

[340Mark]

Yup 98. 5s have the open hole. The block in question is the 53, Mines ok, don't sweat it, what can you do any way. the casting number is low above the pan rail, drivers side in the front and might hard to see. The letters are about 1 inch tall

 

[Ncostello]

94-98 its a problem. 98. 5 -1999 could have the improved cover or not. Some 98. 5's had the improved cover while other 99's have suffered KDP failure. Really hit and miss in those years. 2000 is possible but unlikely. 2001-2002 are fine.



The improved cover was supposed to begin at the first 98. 5. Cummins Headquarters in Columbus admitted they mixed the old covers in until "sometime" in 1999. Engine SN's and Engine build dates wont do you any good. No records as to which engines got what cover.



Personally, I'd just take the cover off and take a look. Not hard and it could well have the good timing cover. This way you get a new crank seal as a bonus!

 

[Paul Somers]

1998. 5 came the 24 valve with the VP-44 pump. Evrything I read says the front cover had to be redesigned to accomadate the VP-44. Do you mean the redesigned cover did not fix the open dowel pin problem? Did they have the same KDP problem with the first VP-44 cover and redesign the cover in later years? Has someone actually seen the problem on any 24 valve? I mean by actually pulling the cover and looking. I know some have used the jig, but was that necessary? I have a 1999 and preparing to pull my cover depending on response to this thread. I know, just pull cover and check will be some responses.

 

[Ncostello]

About the only thing that may have been needed to install a VP44 is to redesign the bolt hole pattern. There have been cases of dowel pin failure in 98. 5's, 99's, perhaps even a 2000 or two. Search under KDP. Narrow your search to the 24 Valve Engine forums and you can read up. There is info there about 24V KDP's. I know some have reported actual failures. Its true.



Cummins reports that the improved cover was installed beginning with the very first 24 Valve ISB. That however is simply not true and the Tech line for Cummins confirmed this for me.



Bottom line... it is possible on 98. 5 and 99 ISB's to have a KDP problem. There is no way to tell for sure if you do or not. The last thing in the world I wanted to do was deal with tearing the engine down. I researched this topic extensively.



My 1999 had an engine build date of 10/27/98. It had the improved cover. But this is in no way an indicator that engines produced after this will have the improved cover. There is no definite answer on this topic.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Yes there have definately been 24v engine that have had the KDP fall out. Many vendors have also held front covers from the 24v that have the open hole with no step - that I've actually seen myself. The front cover is the same on the 12v and the 24v - there was no redesign necessary. IMO it's easier to just use the KDP jig than to pull the cover. If the pin is on the move you'll discover it with the jig and then you will have to pull the cover but there is a good chance that you won't have to. With the jig it only takes about an hour to take care of this issue. It will work ok and not do anything if you have the new cover or old cover. It was a no brainer for me and I started sleeping a lot better after taking care of it.

 

[MUDDY]

as steve sez,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,its easier to just retain pin using the jig than to remove cover to check if ya have the improved case. with the kdp from harold -- email address removed -- you can tap the pin back into place due to the angle and size of the hole with no need to remove cover. if you do the jig fix and find ya got newer case, harolds kit has some shorter set screws ya just red locktite and stick em in hole. they snug down against step area in new case and fill hole. do the fix with the jig and be sure. nuthin to looose but time [les than an hr]



we did many 98. 5 and 99 kdp fixes. over 50 fixes total on all yrs, dont know exactly how many 98. 5 and 99s, but many. of all the 24v rigs we did, only 1 98. 5 and 1 99 had the revised case. we just stuck shorter setscrew in and called it goood.



the 98. 5 w/ revised case had a build date in spring of 98 and the 99 w/ revised case was mnufctrd end of 98. we have done several late 99s w/ old style case

 

[Ncostello]

The stepped hole of the improved case isn't really that noticable. The "step" at the end of the hole is very minimal... but nonetheless very functional. I used a flat punch and got mine to move back in 0. 005". So I'd say I had little movement in 80K miles. I also triple secured mine with green loctite and I staked the hole bore with a pointed punch. Couple that with the stepped hole and I'd say mine isn't going anywhere too far. Thats just how I like it.



There were three covers actually. One was the plain ole cover with the pin bore. The next had a bossed area built up around the bore (tab wont work on this one). Finally there was a bossed/stepped bore cover... this is the improved one.



No body ever really answered my question from long ago. How does the jig work with the bossed pin bore cover... the bossed one that didn't have the step in the bore? If the jig bolt was designed for go directly in front of the bore of a plain cover... does this mean you'll be drilling extra material inside there to make it through the bossed area? Anybody know what I'm talking about? And if so, will the extra metal shavings unknowingly end up in the oil pan?



Cummins recommends the tab for plain covers and a punch staked hole for the bossed, non-stepped, covers. I think the jig idea is great as long as it works for both styles of unimproved covers.

 

[BFC]

Just "jig it" and be done with it. No need to pull the cover off unless the crank seal is already leaking, IMO.



Glenn

 

[John]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

The front cover is the same on the 12v and the 24v - there was no redesign necessary.

That is not quite correct. Evan Beck (a TDR member as well as a NW BOMBer member and friend who is also an ASE certified Diesel mechanic working at The PowerShop) suggested that I purchase a 12v gear case cover IF I was going to use the Cummins gear case cover gasket as opposed to silicone (when I finally get to the KDP fix for my '98. 5 Ram). The sealing edge around the periphery is slightly different than the 24v gear cover... the 12v cover being setup for the use of a gasket... the 24v cover being setup for silicone . As Evan knew I was interested in using the gasket as opposed to the slicone sealing method, hence the suggestion. I purchased the 12v gear case cover at Cummins NW for (I believe) $70. and subsequently had it powder coated to match some of my other engine accent pieces.



Although I do agree with you that the jig method of dowel pin retention is easier and faster, I would take exception if you or anyone else inferred that it was better. Tabbing is the best method period! Every reputable Diesel shop I know of uses the tab method as a KDP fix (The PowerShop, BD, DDP, TST... the list goes on).



BTW, Evan has performed so many 12v and 24v KDP tab fixes I'll bet he could do them in his sleep now!

 

[Ncostello]

I wasn't aware of any differences in the gasket surface but I do know the gasket works flawlessly with my 24V improved cover. I put a very thin smear of Cummins Triple Bond Grey RTV on each side of the gasket. Holds it in place and makes a perfect seal without question.



I'm sure the Cummins brand RTV would work fine all by itself. FWIW, I've tried many different types of RTV and the Cummins stuff, which I had never used, seems much better than anything I had ever used. Expensive... but worth it. Dont know how to explain it but the work-a-bility seemed to please me... and I hate applying RTV in most cases. Just some food for thought.

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by John

Every reputable Diesel shop I know of uses the tab method as a KDP fix (The PowerShop, BD, DDP, TST... the list goes on).

Not quite, Piers uses the jig.

 

[John]

How true that is Bill... and I knew that. I just "stepped over" that one on purpose.



It was just that the other vendors I listed are so adament on the tabbing procedure... and I personally side with them.