Is TDR Too Conservative On Biodiesel?

[Lube Man]

Cummins and DC are promoting B20 pretty well. Let's face it... . B20 has a high likelihood of being the next #2 diesel in the not-too-distant future. It's benefits from an emission standpoint are hard to ignore.

Where did you hear that DC and Cummins were promoting B20? Last time I spoke with both of them about 6 weeks ago they would only OK B5.

 

[Tee]

Same here, I am pushing probably about 3 years on regular use of bio. . On B100 (which I have probably 5-10,000 miles with) it is slightly more sluggish but still runs great. I have not had any pump or any related problems whatsoever, and have never heard of anyone having any problems with their Cummins around here... Diesel is in a shortage right now in the intermountain west so B50 is regularly available all around the state. .

Cruiserhead, I have not had much sucess finding BIO at the pump around Utah and Salt Lake County's. . Could ya point me in the right direction. I would happily run it if I could find it... ...

 

[DJW]

On the BBC World news, I read that some people in Britain are using vegetable oils bought straight out of the grocery store, for use as a fuel for their Diesel cars. It's illegal there owing failure to pay the Tax on it, as here using red Diesel. In Britain it's cost effective to use, owing to the crippling Tax on road fuel, whereas here the cost would be exorbitant, store bought oil vs. highway Diesel. The same old warning there, it will ruin your engine, this from Motoring Organizations etc. but NO details of extended use , experimentation etc, what it will harm? clog up? wear out? cause pregnancy in Males? combat sexual malfunction? I fail to understand in this day and age, why no educated answers are expressed. One would think educated enquiring minds would have already given us answers. Is it Don't Ask Don't Tell? The minor downside, upside, to using vegetable oil in Britain is the exhaust smells like Fish & Chips, a Great Plus foor me.

 

[Jefff929]

BioD only bad if you buy parts from Geno's Garage. Heck ya, TDR is way too conservative on BioD!



My fuel system is 100% BioD compatable with the exception of the vibration isolation hose for my Westech fuel pressure gauge. I found out this when the sending unit leaked. Geno's sent me a new gauge, at a reduced cost. The hose that allows you to mount the sending unit seperatly from the engine vibration is not Bio compatible and gets really squishy when exposed to BioD. I obtained a 1/4" Viton hose from a local shop and went to a local hose repair shop that used the ends from the hose from Geno's. It is all mo better now, how does that go... Better Off Modified Baby :-laf

 

[Loghead]

I fail to understand in this day and age, why no educated answers are expressed. One would think educated enquiring minds would have already given us answers.



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$-here's the reason-$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



:-laf



It'll get to the point where they'll have to acknowledge the viablity of all biofuels; probably once the gov't gets off their hydrogen habit and then the energy giants will have their biofuel research completed and then ... ...

miracle of miracles (read that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$), biofuels will be the greatest thing since Twinkies and peanut butter.

It'll make your hair grow back! Toss out the Viagra!.....



Sad thing is that it takes lots of money to prove anything these days, the most respected (educated) minds cost alot,so only when the gov't stops the hydrogen bomb experiment and frees up some money will biofuels get some recognition.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

I need to open my big mouth every time I hear it. The Diesel Engine was not necessarily designed to run on Vegetable Oil. It was designed to run on whatever fuel happened to be the most economical at the time, whether it was a gas, liquid or suspended solid. Rudolf and his licensees tried a wide variety of fuels, but he first saw a licensees engine run on veggie oil at the 1901 Paris Expedition. It was a fuel he hadn't tried himself. There is no record of anyone doing it again. For some great info on the Diesel engine I highly recommend reading "Diesel's Engine", by Lyle Cummins. Great Stories and lots of history.



I've been running Homebrew Bio for over 6 years, and 300,000 miles of driving, so I'm definitely a proponent, but there are actually some pretty good reasons the manufacturers aren't recommending B100. Search the National Renewable Energy Lab website for Biodiesel testing for a small taste of what they're worried about.



Here's a short list.

Biodiesel easily oxidizes when stored. When it oxidizes it forms acids and solid precipitates. These low molecular weight acids promote the formation of gum and deposits in the entire fuel system. . including areas after the fuel filter. 4 out of 5 B100 samples tested by NREL in 2004 failed the rancimat test. Most failed in one hour, when the minimum standard is 6 hours. So, until the Biodiesel quality in this country improves, manufacturers definitely have something to worry about.



Engine manufacturers, including Cummins, noticed that Biodiesel blends as low as B20 deplated soft metal parts. The overflow valves in the P7100 pump is zinc plated. Cummins presented information at the National Biodiesel Conference in Palm Springs, Ca. two years ago that showed a deplated overflow valve. They also found no evidence of where the zinc went, like into the fuel or engine oil. Until they get answers to questions like that, they're not going to endorse it.



B20-B100 has also been found to reduce the water separating efficiency of coalescing fuel filters. Water separation efficiency of 2 micron filters with B20 blends dropped to 95% with course water droplets (test SAE J1839), but dropped to 0%-30% efficiency with emulsified water (SAE 1488). Interestingly enough, no fuel system damage was noticed even with all that water getting through, but water in Bio can form soaps. Soaps in the fuel lead to increased formation of varnish and gum.



Biodiesel that's blended with ULSD has also been found to form more combustion chamber deposits than when using either ULSD or B100 unblended. It also forms more deposits than when using Biodiesel blends of S500 and S5000. These results have only been noticed in the engine labs, and not in any fleets running ULSD blends.



Lastly Biodiesel and Biodiesel blends cause increased NOx emissions, which is exactly what engineers are now working to reduce. They definitely don't need any variable added to the mix that might interfere with the results they are working so hard to achieve.



My 2 cents.



Joe

 

[Cummins Pilot]

I'd agree that TDR is "scared" of bio for some reason. I hear a lot of opinions but very few facts.



I wish I could get bio from the pump where I live. But -50f requires #1 diesel if you want to keep running. I'm guessing thats why there isn't any bio around here. I've been thinking of making my own and testing it in blends to see what temps I can use it at. Even testing what additives could help it in cold temps. But that would require some free time, which I get about 3 mins a week of.

 

[Hendricks]

Cruiserhead, I have not had much sucess finding BIO at the pump around Utah and Salt Lake County's. . Could ya point me in the right direction. I would happily run it if I could find it... ...

im not really sure where highland is but i could point you to sinclair in ogden right of of 20th st

 

[Cowpunk]

Love love love B100 when I can run it. Right now its a bit cold and I can only run B20, but somethings better than nothing.

 

[tgordon]

In the articles I have read they authurize use of B20 for the "industrial", or maybe it was municiple, and military dodges with the Cummins. Of course the military has a spec that the fuel must be used within a certain time frame for the B20. Considering the standards they have for, well everything, I would not be to concerned on the 2007's. Who else would be interested in a diesel dirt bike. Before everyone goes off on it, just immagine someone shooting a . 50 bmg at you and all you care about is that it runs and will go alooooooonnnnnnnng way on one tank.

 

[jeffshafer]

the big C supports B20

^^^- thanks for the link- it was good read- too bad they are tring to outlaw bio here in Texas- gues that's what you get living in Big Oil land

 

[WBusa]

I'm a big fan of biodiesel but I'm not a 'true believer'. Caution is appropriate whenever you take a complex mechanical system and ask it to do something (such as burning biodiesel) that its' designers never intended it to do (and Rudy's peanut oil doesn't count here... Herr Diesel didn't design my CTD). Also, the current lack of thoroughly detailed specs for biodiesel (comparable to those we have for dino diesel) argues for caution, as well... kinda hard to certify a fuel when you don't actually know what might be in it from tank to tank.



I am very grateful to all the thrill-seeking early adopters who are forging ahead with biodiesel... you are helping to move the needle and make it happen. But thought leaders such as automotive publication writers have to be responsible and, yes, even a little bit conservative, because their audience is much larger than just early-adopters. So I, personally, find their currently modest conservatism to be entirely appropriate. In terms of mind share, biodiesel has come a long way in just the last three years... it's not like we're dragging our feet on this one.