A lot of you guys have sworn that the K&N filter is NOT the way to go. However, everywhere you go "other" people are saying you need the K&N to give more air flow etc. I read ,here, that they shred and the turbo sucks the foam rubber into itself?? You have to go to the monster air filter, etc. Isn't the stock filter the way to go, or what?? Thanx, for help.
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k&n filter??
- Thread starter Hemiville
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I've had all 3
I had all 3 of the filters on my truck. I had it for about a week and bought the K&N from the dealer and put it in the stock airbox. I ran that for a while and then took out the rubber boot that goes from the airbox to the inerfender, after that I drilled several holes in the bottom of the air box and ran that for about 2 years. I started having problems with the boost/map sensor fouling out and the guys at Cummins told me they took the intercooler lines off and noticed it had the oil from the K&N in the intercooler lines. They said that the turbo will suck the oil right off the filter as soon as you put it in. So after 2 map/boost sensors I took the K&N and tosed it in the garbage and put a NAPA gold filter in. I ran this for about 3 months and noticed that my EGTs were about 100 to 200 degrees higher when towing up large hills. I took the NAPA filter out and the stock airbox and went to the BHAF air filter, EGTs dropped 200 degrees and turbo seemed to spull up faster. About 3 weeks ago I put the Mallory mount on the BHAF and noticed another drop in EGTs not much maybe 50 degrees or so.
I'm not saying the K&N is not a good filter or that it doesn't work because there is several guys that have had great luck with the filter it just didn't work very well for me. The stock filter is a good one to but with the mods done to my truck I have to try to keep the EGTs in check as much as possible. The BHAF just works best for me and that's what I will use. The K&N cost be about $50 and the Napa Gold filter was bout $40 and the BHAF is $38. 50 from my local big truck shop. By the way Dodge dealers no longer carry a K&N for the diesel trucks.
Sorry for the long post just trying to help a little.
Big D
I had all 3 of the filters on my truck. I had it for about a week and bought the K&N from the dealer and put it in the stock airbox. I ran that for a while and then took out the rubber boot that goes from the airbox to the inerfender, after that I drilled several holes in the bottom of the air box and ran that for about 2 years. I started having problems with the boost/map sensor fouling out and the guys at Cummins told me they took the intercooler lines off and noticed it had the oil from the K&N in the intercooler lines. They said that the turbo will suck the oil right off the filter as soon as you put it in. So after 2 map/boost sensors I took the K&N and tosed it in the garbage and put a NAPA gold filter in. I ran this for about 3 months and noticed that my EGTs were about 100 to 200 degrees higher when towing up large hills. I took the NAPA filter out and the stock airbox and went to the BHAF air filter, EGTs dropped 200 degrees and turbo seemed to spull up faster. About 3 weeks ago I put the Mallory mount on the BHAF and noticed another drop in EGTs not much maybe 50 degrees or so.
I'm not saying the K&N is not a good filter or that it doesn't work because there is several guys that have had great luck with the filter it just didn't work very well for me. The stock filter is a good one to but with the mods done to my truck I have to try to keep the EGTs in check as much as possible. The BHAF just works best for me and that's what I will use. The K&N cost be about $50 and the Napa Gold filter was bout $40 and the BHAF is $38. 50 from my local big truck shop. By the way Dodge dealers no longer carry a K&N for the diesel trucks.
Sorry for the long post just trying to help a little.
Big D
I run a K&N & have good silicone levels when I have my oil checked evry 10K. I do not have any traces of oil in my intake system. There is some reasoning on other posts that oily residue is more likley to appear in trucks with exhaust brakes due to valve overlap timing. That being said, when I initially installed my K&N, I just took off the snorkle (the boot between the air box & fender) with the increased air flow of the K&N it sucked it into the airbox
What I did to solve the problem was to enlarge the snorkle hole. I cut out the entire end of the box the hole is in, just leaving the lip for the filter to seal on (I grease my filter lip)
This set up enables the filter to draw air across it's whole surface. I am beginning to think that some of the problems with the K&N is not the K&N at all, but forcing the filter to draw air from a localized area of the filter, thus drawing in dirt. The BAHF set up is gaining popularity, but is not protected from any potential water splashing if you drive off road, so that cautions me some.
What I did to solve the problem was to enlarge the snorkle hole. I cut out the entire end of the box the hole is in, just leaving the lip for the filter to seal on (I grease my filter lip)This set up enables the filter to draw air across it's whole surface. I am beginning to think that some of the problems with the K&N is not the K&N at all, but forcing the filter to draw air from a localized area of the filter, thus drawing in dirt. The BAHF set up is gaining popularity, but is not protected from any potential water splashing if you drive off road, so that cautions me some.
Last time I was in the dealership parts dept I noticed the usual K&N display filter was gone. So I asked what the deal was and he said that Cummins and Dodge had stopped approving of them because Cummins had done some testing and found they let an excessive amount of fine particles through. Dont throw rocks at me. Like so many other things we hear I wish there was a way to verify it.
I love k&n... BUT.....
I love my K&N and truely believe in the hi pro air movement that they advertise, however... . after reading post after post of k&n filters not doing a good job, I removed the intake hose just before the turbo just to look and see if there was any "oil" or dirt etc. And I must admit there was ... . an oily, no, more of a tar that had formed on the fins of my turbo blades. HMMMM... . K&N always did me right however I now feel that it is time to stay away from any filter that utilizes an oil to "help" filter the air at least in turbo application... just my . 02 worth.
Derek
I love my K&N and truely believe in the hi pro air movement that they advertise, however... . after reading post after post of k&n filters not doing a good job, I removed the intake hose just before the turbo just to look and see if there was any "oil" or dirt etc. And I must admit there was ... . an oily, no, more of a tar that had formed on the fins of my turbo blades. HMMMM... . K&N always did me right however I now feel that it is time to stay away from any filter that utilizes an oil to "help" filter the air at least in turbo application... just my . 02 worth.
Derek
Protecting the BHAF from water
Cullyguy: This heat shield I built should provide good protection from water splashing up from the road. It wraps around the filter pertty well.
http://www.directcon.net/drkayak/Ram/Heat Shield.htm
Chuck
Cullyguy: This heat shield I built should provide good protection from water splashing up from the road. It wraps around the filter pertty well.
http://www.directcon.net/drkayak/Ram/Heat Shield.htm
Chuck
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Guess that about sums it up then, atleast as far as an "official" position. Thanks Heyboss for finding that link.
I don't know about the K&N because I never tried it, but the diesel tech at the dealership recommended the aFe. I tried to find comparisons bvetween the BHAF and the aFe and had no luck, so since the tech recommended it, I went with the aFe and have been very pleased. I know this doesn't help you at all and only adds to the confusion, but I thought I'd mention it anyways.
HERE'S more info, from a K&N rep, from another thread:
"I wrote a letter to K&N and received a similar reply from Rick also. The first part is my note to K&N and the second part is his reply. See below.
Good Morning
I own a Dodge vehicle with a Cummins Turbocharged Diesel engine and I have installed one of your air filters in the stock airbox. I'm also a subscriber to the TDR (Turbo Diesel Register) magazine and frequently browse their web site. There has been a lot of discussion on this site regarding the use of your filters in these vehicles. Some have "Quoted" K&N Engineers that the K&N Air Filter should not be used in a turbocharged diesel application. Being an engineer myself this seems strange to me that if they should not be used why are they manufactured and marketed?
If you could clarify this situation it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Dear customer,
That would be completely false. First, the engineers do not take phone calls, customer service does. Second, why on Earth would we make a product we do not intend to be used? They may be confused by the large canister type filters we do not make for construction equipments and
earth-movers. We do not make deep enough pleats for these and one would have to clean it every other hour! Not a real convenient situation. The
very same filter we offer is also available at Dodge dealerships through Mopar. It is Mopar part# P5249920. If they were so bad, why would Dodge and K&N offer them?
Our filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory. They have been proven to stop at least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of 75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic
of a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well.
The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.
As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued
until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of the clean element (in this case . 78" to 10. 78" H2O). At this point the
test is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity. The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative
Efficiency.
The K&N filter achieved the following results:
Dust Capacity: 305 grams
K&N Cumulative Efficiency: 99. 05 %
Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil,
capture and hold the very fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some competitors synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton and stay in the media. In fact, Honda and Toyota only recommend K&N filters when using aftermarket high flow filters as K&N is the only brand of filter the oil does NOT come off of. They will not cover a failed sensor if foam filters were used.
We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing every year.
We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock, Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper design. If they work in these conditions they will work for you. Links to the filtration tests are on our web site at
http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif and
> http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab2.gif One actually uses the 33-2056 filter made for the Cummings diesel.
> Thanks for writing, Rick "
Note the CLEAR reference to standard SAE tests/procedures, and the claim of over 99% efficiency with the K&N.
I use the K&N on my Cummins - and receive EXTREMELY low silicon ppm numbers when oil analysis is done. That's MY two cents worth - to each his own!
"I wrote a letter to K&N and received a similar reply from Rick also. The first part is my note to K&N and the second part is his reply. See below.
Good Morning
I own a Dodge vehicle with a Cummins Turbocharged Diesel engine and I have installed one of your air filters in the stock airbox. I'm also a subscriber to the TDR (Turbo Diesel Register) magazine and frequently browse their web site. There has been a lot of discussion on this site regarding the use of your filters in these vehicles. Some have "Quoted" K&N Engineers that the K&N Air Filter should not be used in a turbocharged diesel application. Being an engineer myself this seems strange to me that if they should not be used why are they manufactured and marketed?
If you could clarify this situation it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Dear customer,
That would be completely false. First, the engineers do not take phone calls, customer service does. Second, why on Earth would we make a product we do not intend to be used? They may be confused by the large canister type filters we do not make for construction equipments and
earth-movers. We do not make deep enough pleats for these and one would have to clean it every other hour! Not a real convenient situation. The
very same filter we offer is also available at Dodge dealerships through Mopar. It is Mopar part# P5249920. If they were so bad, why would Dodge and K&N offer them?
Our filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory. They have been proven to stop at least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of 75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic
of a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well.
The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.
As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued
until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of the clean element (in this case . 78" to 10. 78" H2O). At this point the
test is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity. The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative
Efficiency.
The K&N filter achieved the following results:
Dust Capacity: 305 grams
K&N Cumulative Efficiency: 99. 05 %
Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil,
capture and hold the very fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some competitors synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton and stay in the media. In fact, Honda and Toyota only recommend K&N filters when using aftermarket high flow filters as K&N is the only brand of filter the oil does NOT come off of. They will not cover a failed sensor if foam filters were used.
We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their cars and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing every year.
We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock, Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper design. If they work in these conditions they will work for you. Links to the filtration tests are on our web site at
http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif and
> http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab2.gif One actually uses the 33-2056 filter made for the Cummings diesel.
> Thanks for writing, Rick "
Note the CLEAR reference to standard SAE tests/procedures, and the claim of over 99% efficiency with the K&N.
I use the K&N on my Cummins - and receive EXTREMELY low silicon ppm numbers when oil analysis is done. That's MY two cents worth - to each his own!
Naw, don't need them for the TRUTH. The nice thing is that Cummins was sooo informative on their conclusion
No.
DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc. )
Probably the same thing they would say for OHHH, Injectors, boxes, and the like.
Think out of the box here, do you REALLY think they are going to promote anything that they don't produce? Here is an example. . The Uprate kit offered from the Mopar Performance catalog, TDR issue 32 pg 73 that is supported by Cummins. At the begining Cummins told everyone that any mods you did to the engine would void the warranty and after the aftermarket companies started making "boxes" for the Dodge with GREAT success, Lo and Behold Cummins came out with one
Just a thought
Tom
No. DaimlerChrysler and Cummins do not recommend the use of increased flow air filters such as K&N, because they can allow contaminants into the intake that can ruin an engine (scoring the sides of the pistons, etc. )
Probably the same thing they would say for OHHH, Injectors, boxes, and the like.
Think out of the box here, do you REALLY think they are going to promote anything that they don't produce? Here is an example. . The Uprate kit offered from the Mopar Performance catalog, TDR issue 32 pg 73 that is supported by Cummins. At the begining Cummins told everyone that any mods you did to the engine would void the warranty and after the aftermarket companies started making "boxes" for the Dodge with GREAT success, Lo and Behold Cummins came out with one
Just a thought
Tom
I have the K & N Filter that fits in the stock box and had it for 20k miles. I like the Turbo Noise it allows, however, it cloged up my West-Tach turbo gauge with red oil so it became defective(reads only 2lbs at full throttle).
I guess I'll remove it now that all of this feedback has been posted. So, what's the best replacement filter for a BOMB. er that loves 'turbo-whine'?
Bob
I guess I'll remove it now that all of this feedback has been posted. So, what's the best replacement filter for a BOMB. er that loves 'turbo-whine'?
Bob
Hey, I have apples, anyone have oranges
But seriously, we are a unique group among most of the application's of after market air filters. We have engines that are pushing upwards of 20#'s of boost (most gasser extreme's are at 17#'s of boost) and our requirements are different. I'm not saying that K/N's are "Perfect", because if they were, there would be no other filters I'm just saying that I have used them on everything from my Dirtbike, to my streetbikes, my Road race bike, and to my Dodge with good results.
I believe with the K/N is not to OVER oil it. If you can't get it off of the floor because it's too slick, Put the oil can down
This topic will always be a "Bone of contention" but, information and results are what folks are looking for.
Take care all.
Tom "Were is that Mass air sensor on my CR500" Patterson
But seriously, we are a unique group among most of the application's of after market air filters. We have engines that are pushing upwards of 20#'s of boost (most gasser extreme's are at 17#'s of boost) and our requirements are different. I'm not saying that K/N's are "Perfect", because if they were, there would be no other filters
I'm just saying that I have used them on everything from my Dirtbike, to my streetbikes, my Road race bike, and to my Dodge with good results. I believe with the K/N is not to OVER oil it. If you can't get it off of the floor because it's too slick, Put the oil can down
This topic will always be a "Bone of contention" but, information and results are what folks are looking for.
Take care all.
Tom "Were is that Mass air sensor on my CR500" Patterson
Hemiville:
The use of K&N filters in a Dodge CTD truck has been
and will continue to be a very controversial subject on
this website. If you do a "search" on "K&N" you will
find ALOT of entries on it.
Personally, I have not had any problems with these
filters at all and like some of the other members like
"Gary-KJ6Q", I have had my oil tested several times
with no problems noted on any level, including the
silicon readings, which are always low.
(Gary, thanks for your post, I was looking for mine
and couldn't find it. )
My current 96' CTD has 142,000 miles on it and I
have run these filters since day one. My 92' was
sold with 94,000 miles on it and the owner that
bought it now has over 240,000!! He is still
running a K&N filter in it with no engine problems.
I have said all along that one of the biggest
problems I see is overoiling of these filters.
I have never had the "oily residue" alot of the
members report seeing/finding on their turbos.
My son races Yamaha Banshee 4 wheelers on
the AMA and Mid-Atlantic ATV Race Circuit. Our
engines are built by Duncan Racing in Santee,
California. One of the quads has Duncan's
"403 Eliminator" engine which costs over
$3,000. 00. We run this quad on some VERY
dusty tracks using the K&N filters and after
every race meticulously clean them never
finding any dust anywhere but outside the
engine.
My suggestion is to try several filters and
see which one "works best for you. "
For me, I need all the extra air I can get.
Good luck "Hemiville!"
------------
John_P
The use of K&N filters in a Dodge CTD truck has been
and will continue to be a very controversial subject on
this website. If you do a "search" on "K&N" you will
find ALOT of entries on it.
Personally, I have not had any problems with these
filters at all and like some of the other members like
"Gary-KJ6Q", I have had my oil tested several times
with no problems noted on any level, including the
silicon readings, which are always low.
(Gary, thanks for your post, I was looking for mine
and couldn't find it. )
My current 96' CTD has 142,000 miles on it and I
have run these filters since day one. My 92' was
sold with 94,000 miles on it and the owner that
bought it now has over 240,000!! He is still
running a K&N filter in it with no engine problems.
I have said all along that one of the biggest
problems I see is overoiling of these filters.
I have never had the "oily residue" alot of the
members report seeing/finding on their turbos.
My son races Yamaha Banshee 4 wheelers on
the AMA and Mid-Atlantic ATV Race Circuit. Our
engines are built by Duncan Racing in Santee,
California. One of the quads has Duncan's
"403 Eliminator" engine which costs over
$3,000. 00. We run this quad on some VERY
dusty tracks using the K&N filters and after
every race meticulously clean them never
finding any dust anywhere but outside the
engine.
My suggestion is to try several filters and
see which one "works best for you. "
For me, I need all the extra air I can get.
Good luck "Hemiville!"
------------
John_P
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