Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Kdp. Do We Need To Keep It?

[BParent]

I WAS JUST WONDERING ABOUT THE KDP's FUNCTION, OTHER THAN CAUSING SOME OF US TO HAVE A VERY BAD DAY!!! IF I USE THE KDP JIG AND HIT THE PIN, I HAVE TO REMOVE THE FRONT COVER AND TAP THIS THING BACK IN RIGHT? BUT IF A PERSON DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO OR CANT WAIT FOR THE JIG, CAN YOU REMOVE THE COVER AND REMOVE THE PIN? EVEN IF ITS PRESSED IN CAN YOU DRILL THE FRONT COVER AND USE A PUNCH TO KNOCK IT OUT, THEN TAP THE HOLE AND COUNTERSINK A SCREW INTO IT? OR DO YOU HAVE TO LEAVE IT IN THE COVER FOR SOME REASON. THANKS FOR ANY INPUT. RAM ON

 

[JWaters]

It's only there to line up the cover when you first install it. If the dowel is out or you can get it out throw it away. You only nned it if you ever remove the cover.

 

[illflem]

There has been a bit of debate on whether the pin is necessary or not. It lines up the case, not the cover. Cummins tech told me it should stay in as the bolt holes have slop and to not have the pins (there are two) risks misalignment that can change your timing and take out bearings and seals. I'll go with his word. You probably won't be able to get it out anyways. Just do the jig fix and forget it.

 

[Joe G.]

The pin is necessary. It aligns the gear case and keeps it from moving. From what I am told it can affect injection timing if the gear case moves. It's hard and slick so pulling it out might be pretty hard to do depending on how far it is sticking out. You can alway make and install a blocking tab once you have the cover off.

 

[redram]

If the dowel pin has not 'walked out' of the aluminum case, it would be hard to drill and pull out.



Here is a picture of mine - I checked it while having the alternator, belt tensioner and radiator out while working on a a/c clutch and rotor.



My pin had not moved a mm in 144K.

 

[Ben Rumson]

have spare

I bought a spare pin (less than $1. 83) to have on hand while I removed the timing cover and did the "tab" method of repair... tapped the existing pin back into it's hole and all was good.

 

[BWilson]

I would have to agree with leaving the pin in; however, Bparent brought up a good question. Can you just drill a hole in the front of the cover, pound the pin back in, and thread and screw that hole?

 

[Gifford]

Cummins says we're all hysterical about kdp

The mechanic at Cummins West told me the TDR was responsible for the mass hysteria RE: the KDP... He said I should be more concerned about making sure I dont get any foil from the rotella bottles in the oil when I change the oil because that has caused far more catastrophic engine failures than anything else. His anecdotal evidence consisted of his personal 96 12v with 200k+ on it with no KDP failure, and he said the whole fleet of Cummins RAm service trucks were KDP failure free...

 

[illflem]

Guess you could if you knew where to drill the hole. Seems to me to do it right you would have to disassemble the entire front end or use an angle drill. Seems like too much work when other options are availible.

 

[BWilson]

Using an angle drill or even a pencil grinder to me would seem infintiely easier than pulling the cover to pound the pin back in. I just didn't know if there was clearance or not, outside, for the bolt head and inside for the bolt threads.

 

[Joe G.]

Guys,



The gear case cover is pretty thin. You would have to know exactly where the KDP is to drill a hole. Then there is very little clearance to work while you make the attempt. It really doesn't take that long to remove the cover and install a blocking tab anyway. I recently received a note from a guy who did it in three hours just from the instructions I sent him. Going thru the cover with a hole is really the hard way to do it. If the KDP needs driving back in then it's on the way out and will eventually fall in the gears. Most of them have not moved. The jig and tab methods are just preventive measures.



Gifford,



Ask Curtis (gitchesum) about that one.

 

[Ben Rumson]

The KDP IS a problem...

and we have the TDR membership to honestly admit it and help each other fix/prevent it from becoming an even bigger problem. Hewey on the Cummins rep that said the TDR has blown it out of proportion.



Are we making a bigger deal about this than it really is? NO WAY ! If the potential is there, and that potential has become a reality for many of our members, then we're doing exactly what we should be doing - we're alerting each other to the potential problem and we've devised some simple and creative ways of fixing it! Why did Cummins design their newer housings with an internal groove to prevent the pin from working it's way out? They recognized the same potential problem.



The TDR membership is dead on target! Keep up the good work everybody !!!



Drilling the front timing cover in order to tap the pin back in... ? not sure if you have enough clearance to get a very good whack at it... it's tight enough even with the cover off. But, if you knew for sure that you were on the pin and could verify that the pin was reseting, then it ought to work. If so, I'd cap the new hole in the cover with a small piece of sheet metal with good RTV sealant and a few small sheet metal screws to hold it in place.

 

[Gifford]

Dont shoot the messenger!

Obviously they (Cummins) have a vested interest in this matter, I was just relaying what I was told by a Cummins employee, but has anyone really put together any statistical data on this? MTBF? (I bet Cummins knows... ) Out of all the TDR members; how many have had a failure? How many "KDP killers" have found a loose pin?

 

[Joe G.]

At least one member reported that when he took the gear case cover off the KDP was so loose that it fell out when he touched it. Some members have had a failure while waiting for the jig. The failure is actually pretty rare, but it is easy to prevent so the risk is not necessary. IF it DOES fail lots of work and/or money to fix the damage. In fact, there is a danger that a failure can wreck the engine instead of just causing an oil leak.



This is an old post with a description of the method Cummins uses to fix it. Why would a Cummins mechanic have experience in fixing it if the failure was as rare as Cummins would like us to believe?

 

[Ben Rumson]

How do we post a "Poll"?

We ought to do a Poll to see:



KDP was not loose

KDP was loose

KDP was partially out

KDP was missing

KDP caused damage



Can someone get one started?

 

[Joe G.]

Illflem already did that. The poll confirmed that the failure is rare. We already knew that. However, from some posts we are getting the feeling that it's not if it will fail but when. Anyway, I think it's not worth taking the chance that it will fail when the preventive "fix" is so cheap and easy.

 

[illflem]

For Cummins to admit it's a problem is like admitting guilt. If they didn't believe it was a problem why would the send a letter like the one quoted here? Cummins has also sent out a service bulletin to their dealers detailing how to repair kdp damage and has provided a gear puller that allows removing the case with out pulling the cam. Seems like a lot of work if it's rare.



A friend who works for UPS, where they have many 12 valve CTD engines in their trucks, told me at least one truck is down with a pin failure every week at the depot where he works. UPS is considering buying jigs.



IMO fixing the pin is like comp insurance on your truck. You may go your whole life without using it but you never know what could of happened. You can almost be sure if you don't have it you'll wish you did. The cost of the damage from a failed pin makes it worth preventing even if the chance of it falling out is only 1 in 10,000 engines.



It's really silly to not do anything about it when the jig and tab methods are so easy.

 

[Ben Rumson]

Originally posted by illflem

It's really silly to not do anything about it when the jig and tab methods are so easy.

Well said Bill.



Both methods have proven sucessful at fixing the potential problem. Although I used the tab method to "fix" the 3 trucks that I've done, (thoughts of getting a cat nutered come to mind... ohh oooh :-laf - I wouldn't want someone to refer to my truck as "nutered", quite the opposite) in retrospect, I wouldn't put either method over the other. Both methods are straight forward and require simple, basic tools. The jig is quicker and cost next to nothing, the tab gives you the chance to double check the other bolts inside the lid, but costs a new gasket, front seal, and some RTV.



Thanks to Joe G providing me with his instructions for fixing it the tab method way nearly a year ago. I dove into it and found the process straight forward. Since then I've forwarded his same instructions (with a few notes of my own) to dozens of other TDR members and have helped walk 2 members through various steps of the process while on the phone. I'm sure many of you have done the same.



That's what's GREAT about the TDR !



PS I keep my last used Fuel Filter and a strap wrench in my tool box. If I come upon anyone with a gelled filter - mi filter es su filter.