Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) KDP Tab attempt halted

[Ncostello]

I took off my front cover tonight and discovered my KDP is resting peacefully where Cummins put it. However I cant really tell if I have the stepped or improved cover or not. I do know that I was planning on installing a tab... which up to this point has been described as a simple fender washer or a custom made shape out of steel stock. In either case it looked like a flat piece.



After careful examination, I dont think there is anyway I can install a tab on mine... unless its stair stepped (not flat). From photos I've studied in the past, tabs look like they install under the nearby case bolt and extend over to cover the tab. The tabs in the photos (which I cant find tonight for some reason) appeared to be flat and they simply cover the KDP hole. But my hole end is raised above the surface the nearby bolt is up against... maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch. So its impossible to use a flat tab in my case. I suspect if I had used the jig, I would have been drilling through alot more metal than usual.



Does this mean I have the improved case? I've seen photos of the stepped hole improved design from the backside... but none from the front so I have no idea what I'm seeing. My pin is recessed in the hole maybe 1/4" and I didn't feel like tapping it and checking with a dial indicator for movement tonight.



I wish I had access to the camera so I could post what I see. I'll try that tomorrow if nobody knows



PS: Is the some kind of slinger ring I should put on the crank stub before the new seal is installed? I dont have one on there now. And should I use a cover gasket or grey RTV? All I could see was grey RTV and no gasket on mine... it literally popped right off all at once. I prefer gaskets.



Man its late... I think I'll get to sleep now

 

[illflem]

Surprise, surprise

The kdp tab has a Cummins part number now:3958017 and bulletin to go with it http://www.nwbombers.com/board/ikonboard.cgi?s=3e653b306b12ffff;act=ST;f=3;t=2507

Cummins still insists the problem only effects engines manufactured before June '98, personally I know this isn't true.

 

[Ncostello]

Oh Great!!!

Looks like you may have answered my question illflem. The pictures in your link shows what I have I think... as least I know I have the "bossed gear housing"... to which there is no tab fix available in that Cummins document. GREAT... all I can do is whack it with a punch and make a bur in the hole. I suppose I could design a stair stepped tab for the bossed hole covers.



I like the Cummins tab however... . part number and all!! But wouldn't you know it... wont work on mine. I wonder what the point of making a bossed cover was? Especially one that didn't have provisions to keep the KDP in its bore???



I'm still not exactly sure if my dowel pin hole is "internally" stepped or not. Maybe the only way to tell is to measure the ID of the hole end versus the ID of a non-improved case hole.



I'm not sure how "long" the stepped portion of the hole would be... but I can tell that my pin is about 1/4" in and I cant see any "lip" edge around the end of my pin hole. I'm lookin for a digital camera here at work now so I can zoom in real close and post my findings on a 10/98 (1999 truck) produced Cummins ISB.



PS: I wonder how the bossed cover design will affect the use of a jig fix? Seems the display cover I saw had the keeper screw located right in front of the hole of a non-bossed hole case. So if you jig a bossed case, wont you be driling through a lot more metal... or will it matter? I have no clue how the drill bit would line up with the boss. Didn't know if it would drill half in the boss and half out of it if you know what I mean.

 

[Ncostello]

photo attachment attempt 24KB

This was one of about 10 photos I took at lunch. It has the best focus and was close enough to see a little detail. There was one that was very close but was just a little too fuzzy. Its hard to focus that close when your holding the camera between the radiator and the engine. PS: I did leave the shroud on the radiator.

 

[Ncostello]

A couple of things to note:



Rotella makes a nice black film all over everything inside the engine. Secondly, I believe my case is the improved design because the oil in the bore is blocked from completely draining out by the stepped end of the hole.



I did take a tiny scratch awl with a 90 degree hook end and I can definately feel a lip or step all around the bore opening. Not much but it is very definate and consistent. You might be able to see the casting "zone" where the step of the hole is cast in.



I tapped on the pin about 20 times with a blunt punch as hard as I could. Cant swing too much with the radiator right in front.



The depth gauge measured 0. 154" (base reading) and 0. 154" after I tapped on it. So it seems like it has not moved much if any over 80,000 miles.



Dont guess these posts prove much... but at least I think they did install some improved cases on ISB engines produced in 1998. At least I sure hope I'm right on mine because I'm just going to bolt it back together as is.

 

[Ncostello]

Front cover is back on and all is well. I used a surveying level scope and I zoomed in real close to my dowel pin hole to get a close up of the improved case. I do in fact have the stepped case. There's not much step there... but enough to stop a KDP for sure. I was also able to tap it back in 0. 05" so it did have some minor activity... I used a larger hammer this time to get some power in a short swing distance. I then used wicking loc-tite to keep it there. Also torqued the other case bolts I could reach. They were still tight.



The front seal was a breeze. The installer tool worked fine. Me and these types of seals usually dont get along. I also decided to use a gasket instead of the factory three bond silicon RTV. I just applied Napa High Tack to the cover side and nothing on the case side. I cleaned the aluminum case of all silicon and practically polished it. No leaks and it should come off easy if ever needed. One tip on holding the engine while torquing the damper bolts... I put the truck in 4th (direct 1:1) and put a bar through the rear u-joint. The bar rests on the ground and prevents any rotation. I guessed the u-joint, clutch, etc should be able to handle 92 ft-lbs of applied stress.



I guess all I can finally say is that my early ISB (engine date 10/21/98) did in fact have the improved case, although some didnt. Its just too bad you cant tell from the outside. Lots of work for nothing but peace of mind. At least with 12V's you know you have a problem. 98's and 99's are hit and miss. But I had fun and got to know the engine a little better.



One note: It looks like there were some pins behind the VP pump gear. Are these alignment pins also and are they a danger? Ever heard of any other pins falling out besides the one we know as the KDP?



Finally, it sure is nice having a resource like the TDR. Made all my work much easier. Manuals and written instructions are nice but experience is much nicer. Lots of knowledge in the searches.

 

[B9Mile]

Great Post, Neil

This is excellent info, Neil.



The build date for my ISB is 07 FEB 98. In a week or two, when I get some time, I will be removing the front cover to see what is in there. I'll have some pictures for everybody.



Thanks again for the info!

 

[B9Mile]

I got a look at the dowel pin on my truck today. Its the old style case.



I estimate the pin had moved out about 0. 030". I didn't measure it since I don't have anything that will fit in there. Anyways, I used a piece of brass round stock and a hammer to push it back in.



Two medium taps and it was seated again at the bottom of the hole. I was surprised at how easily it moved back. I'll be putting a tab fix on it.





Here is a picture of the pin. It looks like it was out to about where the chamfer meets the OD of the pin. I had to crop it down so it woud load here.

 

[Ncostello]

Nice photo B9Mile. I couldn't get the camera adjusted right for mine. I was using a Sony Digital Mavica from work so I wasnt too sure how to get it just right. Mine only moved 0. 02" and it didn't move to easy. Now I drive without fear of destroying anything but pavement.

 

[B9Mile]

Thanks, Neil. I had quite a few out of focus shots too. Its a good thing I took lots of pictures.



I looked around the shop at the house for something to make a tab out of and decided a putty knife would do. Its blade material is just a bit flexible (nonbrittle) and still pretty tough, while being fairly thin.



Here is a shot of the installed tab. Its a little decieving since you can see the bevel on the upper edge from the putty knife's blade. The smaller end of the tab is a bit shiny from the custom fitting I did with a file.



As loose as this pin appeared to be, I believe I would have eventually had a cracked case. Thanks to all of the TDR folks who contribute their knowledge and experiences, I have been able to prevent a costly repair job.

 

[cosborne]

Ok guys, the info here has been awesome. It's time for me to check and see what my case looks like inside. Can you give me a simple run down of pulling the cover off? I've done a bunch of searches and all the info relates to the fix mostly. What tools or gasket material do I need?

Thanks for your help on this, I've already requested the jig... maybe I should wait and see what case I have first? Or if I can do the tab fix if my bolt isn't recessed.



Thanks again fo the help!

 

[Ncostello]

Fairly simple operation. Here's what I remember. I disconnected the batteries first. Remove fan blade/clutch using a 1-7/16" open end wrench. I put the wrench on the nut and wacked it with a mallet towards the driver side of the truck. Its a reverse thread nut... don't forget that. Fish the fan assembly out taking care not to damage the fins of the radiator. You dont have to remove any hoses or the shroud but that would make it slightly easier.



Then I took the belt off, removed the fan pulley assembly and bracket and I took off the fan belt adjuster mechanism. Then remove the crank damper/pulley. Finally remove the bolts for the front cover and remove it... taking care to hold on when it pops loose because it will fly off there under prying pressure just when you think it wont budge.



Clean it all up, seal the cover with a new gasket, install a new front shaft seal and reverse the procedure. You can figure it out as you go along if I missed anything. Just remove the stuff that looks like its in your way to pull the cover off. Clean the bolts up good and put them back where they came from... they are not all the same length. Its really simple to do. Just take your time and keep it all clean. Dont get oil on the new crank seal or it will leak. Its a dry seal upon installation.

 

[cosborne]

Wow thats was quick!!! Thanks a bunch. Do I need to actually buy new gaskets from Dodge or can I use RTV?

 

[Ncostello]

Well, I used a new Cummins gasket although my truck did not have a gasket originally installed. Cummins told me that all ISB's were assembled with a gasket but I dont believe thats true... maybe the ones they have worked on in the past but not mine anyway.



I took the Cummins gasket (very high quality and tough) and smeared a very thin coating of the Cummins Triple Bond Grey RTV (also good stuff) on both sides. This proved to be a good way to stick it to the cover and provided a leakproof instant seal good for many years. I also took some metric long bolts and cut the heads off to use as guide studs for the cover. Just remove them once you've got the bolts going back in.



Or you can just use RTV and I'm sure you'll get a seal. The gasket however makes it easy and much less messy. Imaging trying to get the cover down in there and line up the crank while trying not to bump the silicon bead you spent time making perfect. It would be hard for me.

 

[B9Mile]

Neil's comment about the metric bolts being used as guide pins is a good way to go. I also used them to support/guide the front cover back into place. These will help to prevent damage to the crankshaft seal.



The seal's plastic starting tool works well. It won't over extend the seal's lip when you pull the cover up against the gear housing.



I only seated the new crank seal into the cover to the same depth as the original one. The crankshaft didn't have any serious wear grooves in it from the old seal, so I figured it was OK to stay at the old seating depth.



My engine only had the gray RTV on the cover as a sealing gasket. I put Permatex Ultra Black on it when I reassembled it. I think that will be OK.



Here are a couple of more ideas about installing the seal back into the cover and other things:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69800



I took the fan shroud off since it had a sharp edge on it and that was becoming a nuisance. You will need a long screwdriver to release the retaining buttons on the windshield washer tank if you remove that.



I also removed the upper coolant hose to give me a bit more room. If you want to replace your thermostat, this would be a good time to do that. If you drain some coolant to remove the upper hose, put a length of plastic tubing on the nipple of the radiator drain valve. Then you can route the coolant into a jug, instead of having it dribble all over everything and the floor.



Some pictures of a jig fix here:

http://www.phantomcycle.com/kdpfix.html