low rider 5er

[Bob Miller]

My 27' fifth wheel sits to low for my 2003 dodge 4x4 I dont have firm mesurements as of yet, it needs to go up around six inches what do all of you out there think about six inch steel block under the leaf springs? my axels are all ready flipped do you guys have any Ideas other than a new sub frame



Thanks Bob.

 

[Boldt's Wagon]

Put the trailer weight on the 3500 and then measure what you need. An incremental approach might be to take an inch or two out of the 3500 rear shims and then gain an inch or so by installing a longer equalizer link between the trailer springs. Dexter sells a longer equalizer link for their axles.

 

[RustyJC]

If you're talking about 6" spacers between the springs and axles, you're gonna have a heck of a spring wind-up problem under braking.



If all else fails, the preferred fix is to have a trailer fabrication shop weld a 6"x2" (in the case of our 5ver - in your case, whatever is appropriate for your frame design) section of rectangular steel tubing to the bottom of the frame and then remount the suspension on that new section - 6" lower than its present mounting. These new sections should be braced to existing crossmembers or, if none are present close by, new x-braced crossmember(s) should be added between them.



Rusty

 

[RHARVEY]

Do you have the 16" wheels on the 5er??? When we bought our new Nash 5er... it had the 16" wheels and tires on it. . man was it up in the air. With this combo, the trailer would nose down toward the truck. I finally told the salesman that if he could not get the trailer to run level with the truck. . I would not buy the trailer. After he made some calls to the company. . he was able to change out the wheels/tires to a set of 15" wheels/tires. And with the adjustment on the pin on the trailer... truck and trailer looks level...

Check the difference of the wheels and tires. . it made 3" difference in mine...



Rick

 

[Bob Miller]

Originally posted by RustyJC

If you're talking about 6" spacers between the springs and axles, you're gonna have a heck of a spring wind-up problem under braking.



If all else fails, the preferred fix is to have a trailer fabrication shop weld a 6"x2" (in the case of our 5ver - in your case, whatever is appropriate for your frame design) section of rectangular steel tubing to the bottom of the frame and then remount the suspension on that new section - 6" lower than its present mounting. These new sections should be braced to existing crossmembers or, if none are present close by, new x-braced crossmember(s) should be added between them.



Rusty

Is this what you had done new frame work and if so around what did it cost you if you dont mind me asking also what is spring wind up educate me please



thank you Bob

 

[Bob Miller]

Originally posted by RHARVEY

Do you have the 16" wheels on the 5er??? When we bought our new Nash 5er... it had the 16" wheels and tires on it. . man was it up in the air. With this combo, the trailer would nose down toward the truck. I finally told the salesman that if he could not get the trailer to run level with the truck. . I would not buy the trailer. After he made some calls to the company. . he was able to change out the wheels/tires to a set of 15" wheels/tires. And with the adjustment on the pin on the trailer... truck and trailer looks level...

Check the difference of the wheels and tires. . it made 3" difference in mine...



Rick

I have 15's there is only five inches of clearance between the two wheels I dont think that I have the room to go with 16's or the tires might rub



any more ideas come on guys I need your help here Oo.



Oh mayby you can measure your tire clearance for me and let me know what you got that might tell me if I can fit 16's or not, I have five inches from tire to tire at the closest points (prety much dead center) thanks again Bob.



thanks Bob.

 

[Bob Miller]

Originally posted by Boldt's Wagon

Put the trailer weight on the 3500 and then measure what you need. An incremental approach might be to take an inch or two out of the 3500 rear shims and then gain an inch or so by installing a longer equalizer link between the trailer springs. Dexter sells a longer equalizer link for their axles.

There are no shims under the springs on the 2003 model at least I didnt see any on my truck are you talking about the blocks under the springs if so the 2003's dont have em like the preveous years do, what is an equalizer link I am not shure if I have one all I have is two axels with leave springs the springs are mounted on top of the axels no shocks either



Thanks Bob

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Bob Miller

Is this what you had done? New frame work and if so around what did it cost you if you dont mind me asking?

Bob, our 3500 is 2WD, so we didn't have the height problem. A couple of individuals over on iRV2.com have done this mod, and it's really not that expensive to get a shop like Trailer Wheel & Frame here in Houston to make this mod. If a good shop does it, it looks like it came from the factory that way.

Also, what is spring wind up? Educate me, please.

The 6" blocks you were talking about installing act like lever arms between the axles and springs. Right now, the axle is u-bolted snugly against the spring, right? Therefore, when you apply the trailer brakes, the spring is capable of resisting the torque being transferred by the axle. With the 6" blocks, however, imagine what happens when the trailer brakes are applied. The axle is trying to rotate with the wheels, and this torque (rotating force) is transferred to the springs through the 6" blocks. The torque will tend to deform (wind up) the springs where the blocks attach, and the axles will try to move rearward and upward. When the spring forces become higher than the torque, the whole mess will snap back and repeat the process.



Bob, if you can get the height issue corrected with the other methods that have been suggested, that's great. I just wanted to make you aware that these frame mods are worth considering if everything else fails.



Good luck!



Rusty

 

[Bob Miller]

Originally posted by RustyJC

Bob, our 3500 is 2WD, so we didn't have the height problem. A couple of individuals over on iRV2.com have done this mod, and it's really not that expensive to get a shop like Trailer Wheel & Frame here in Houston to make this mod. If a good shop does it, it looks like it came from the factory that way.







The 6" blocks you were talking about installing act like lever arms between the axles and springs. Right now, the axle is u-bolted snugly against the spring, right? Therefore, when you apply the trailer brakes, the spring is capable of resisting the torque being transferred by the axle. With the 6" blocks, however, imagine what happens when the trailer brakes are applied. The axle is trying to rotate with the wheels, and this torque (rotating force) is transferred to the springs through the 6" blocks. The torque will tend to deform (wind up) the springs where the blocks attach, and the axles will try to move rearward and upward. When the spring forces become higher than the torque, the whole mess will snap back and repeat the process.



Bob, if you can get the height issue corrected with the other methods that have been suggested, that's great. I just wanted to make you aware that these frame mods are worth considering if everything else fails.



Good luck!



Rusty

any idea what they paid for the frame mod's just ball park?

thanks Bob.

 

[RustyJC]

Bob,



Don't take this to the bank, but it sticks in my mind that they paid around $300 or so. YMMV (your mileage may vary).



Rusty

 

[Ron Bissett]

Going from a 16 wheel to a 15 " wheel will lower axle 1/2 " only . to as stated by others you can add a tube to the frame and add 6" or more hignt to trailer just mark position of center of mount and spring hangers with a scribe and chalk , Look in your area for a welder that has a portable welder and cuting torch . Or you can cut present set up off with a cut off saw with a cermic wheel or two after puting trailer up on jack stands ,leaving truck attached for safety , doing one side at a time would keep the axle in line as other side would be still ligned up . You would have to jack up the two axles on the side you are working on and lower the axles with the wheels still in place alternate between axles unless two people worked together and then weld tube on top of tube or mount that you cut off . after welding the tube jack up axles to place tube back in line with scribe marks and weld tube in place . when finished ,lower side then axles do other side . when done and every thing looks good a plate can be welded on out side and inside to look good and add some strengh , About a one day job , this is just a way that it could be done others may have a better way . Most area welders that work for some shop also work on the side ask around look in Bargan Mart or other papers . steel can be purchased at most scrap yards or steel venders and will sell small amounts two . hope this gives you a idea on what is needed to do the job . If you raise the trailer you will have to lower the steps or add a portable one LOL Ron in Louisville KY

 

[SOLER]

6" spacers vs blocks

Rusty, you are correct with what you said about torque twist with blocks. That is if you simply mount blocks between the axle and the springs, such as is on the rear axles of our trucks.



Bob,

The preferred method is to install spacers on the frame. Remove the entire axle/spring assemblies, and mount (weld) a 6"x3" (depending on the width of the frame) to the frame. Then reinstall the assemblies to this spacer. Make sure that the spacer is a few inches longer on each end to spread out the stress thoughout the frame.



For instance, if the distance from the forward spring mount to the rear mount is 48", the the spacer should be about 60-70 inches. This will reduce the amount of stress on the frame right where the springs mount to the spacer, and the spacer to the frame.



My 5er had the same problem, and I had 3"x3" spacers installed. Remember, when you raise the trailer, the weight distribution is going to change, and might end up putting more weight on the truck, making it sag more than it does now. This change could be slight, or drastic, depending on what you have. Plus, when you change the height from that far back, you might not actually need to raise the trailer the full 6 inches to get the angles within a comfortable region.



I could have installed taller spacers, and my trailer still sits a little lower in the back than the front, but it clears the bed fine, and the angles on the axles and springs are under control. Before, they would tend to bind because more of the weight was on the back axles, and would push the spring hangers forward.



Hope this helps!



SOLER

 

[Bob Miller]

Got a torch?

Many thanks to everyone for there helpfull input, I guess the best way to go is to add some height to the frameOo. after all saftey first, peice of mind is a good feeling when you are hauling a load down the highway, now I gues what I need to do is to find a good welder that will not burn me LOL, being that I am in the Bay Area of California that could be quite a task I wonder how I can go about doing this with out hauling the coach to a whole bunch of different shops for estimats it would be nice to find a welder who has done this before, anyone out there know of anyone or have any ideas on how I should proceed :--)



Thanks again Bob.

 

[RustyJC]

I guess I'd start by checking with the local RV dealers to determine if they have any quality sources for this work. Barring that, I'd start looking in the Yellow Pages for Trailer Manufacturers or Trailer Repair/Service.



Good luck!



Rusty

 

[Southbound]

Late reply

Hello Bob! I too had issues with my truck being to high so I had the dealer reverse my axles and re-weld my saddle plates to the top of my axles. This configuration only lasted one pull before failing. Basically I had to lean on my brakes one day coming home from the campground which in-turn put a lot of pressure on my axles which cause the welds to break on the saddle plates so my axles actually twisted and caused major damage. Typically when you raise your trailer you will tend to add more pressure points to both of your axles but also to your leaf springs to due the body roll... . caused by a higher center of gravity. The FIX: I went to a local Dexter axle dealer and ordered two new axles but this time I ordered 3inch axles instead of 2 inch which I originally had. I also had the saddle plates welded on top of my axles by the manufacturer which was done correctly. Note: with the three inch axles I was able to increase the size of the saddle plates which will give you better footing for your leaf-springs as well as larger U-bolts for added strength. After the axles came in I also went to a 16inch wheel and mounted some larger tires to increase the height of my trailer. To recap your getting increased height by upgrading the diameter of your axles, your also getting increased height by using a larger wheel and tire. One last thing I used different upper plates so I could install shocks on my trailer which it didn't have before. By adding shocks you will minimize the stress to your hub area which is important when adding bigger wheels and tires. I now have 6 inches of clearance between the bed rails of my truck and the bottom of the trailer. I have to admit my trailer looks like it is ready for the moon having the larger wheels and tires. I now have a 4x4 Jayco 5th wheel. Any way the above suggestions are my 2cents only so take it for what its worth. Good luck on your fabrications..... let us know what you decide to do.



Southbound

 

[Bob Miller]

Re: Late reply

Originally posted by Southbound

Hello Bob! I too had issues with my truck being to high so I had the dealer reverse my axles and re-weld my saddle plates to the top of my axles. This configuration only lasted one pull before failing. Basically I had to lean on my brakes one day coming home from the campground which in-turn put a lot of pressure on my axles which cause the welds to break on the saddle plates so my axles actually twisted and caused major damage. Typically when you raise your trailer you will tend to add more pressure points to both of your axles but also to your leaf springs to due the body roll... . caused by a higher center of gravity. The FIX: I went to a local Dexter axle dealer and ordered two new axles but this time I ordered 3inch axles instead of 2 inch which I originally had. I also had the saddle plates welded on top of my axles by the manufacturer which was done correctly. Note: with the three inch axles I was able to increase the size of the saddle plates which will give you better footing for your leaf-springs as well as larger U-bolts for added strength. After the axles came in I also went to a 16inch wheel and mounted some larger tires to increase the height of my trailer. To recap your getting increased height by upgrading the diameter of your axles, your also getting increased height by using a larger wheel and tire. One last thing I used different upper plates so I could install shocks on my trailer which it didn't have before. By adding shocks you will minimize the stress to your hub area which is important when adding bigger wheels and tires. I now have 6 inches of clearance between the bed rails of my truck and the bottom of the trailer. I have to admit my trailer looks like it is ready for the moon having the larger wheels and tires. I now have a 4x4 Jayco 5th wheel. Any way the above suggestions are my 2cents only so take it for what its worth. Good luck on your fabrications..... let us know what you decide to do.



Southbound

Southbound, I have concidered doing pretty much exactly what you have sudjested, (biger tires- shocks-ect ect) I espeicaly like the idea of bigger axels and u-bolts

If you dont mind me asking about how much did all of theese modifications run you (Ball Park) also I dont know if I will be able to add biger tires as I only have five inches of clearance between the two tires now How did you go about finding someone to do the work for you?

I thank each and everyone of you for your sudjestions and for taking the time to post replys to my delema, for now I am waiting for RBW to come out with the mounts for the 2003's so I can have my hitch installed as soon as I can get it lashed up it will give me a better idea of how much I will need to raise the coach.

again thank you and keep the ideas comming if you have them keep in mind safety is allways an issue.

take care.

Bob.

 

[Bob Miller]

Re: Late reply

Originally posted by Southbound

Hello Bob! I too had issues with my truck being to high so I had the dealer reverse my axles and re-weld my saddle plates to the top of my axles. This configuration only lasted one pull before failing. Basically I had to lean on my brakes one day coming home from the campground which in-turn put a lot of pressure on my axles which cause the welds to break on the saddle plates so my axles actually twisted and caused major damage. Typically when you raise your trailer you will tend to add more pressure points to both of your axles but also to your leaf springs to due the body roll... . caused by a higher center of gravity. The FIX: I went to a local Dexter axle dealer and ordered two new axles but this time I ordered 3inch axles instead of 2 inch which I originally had. I also had the saddle plates welded on top of my axles by the manufacturer which was done correctly. Note: with the three inch axles I was able to increase the size of the saddle plates which will give you better footing for your leaf-springs as well as larger U-bolts for added strength. After the axles came in I also went to a 16inch wheel and mounted some larger tires to increase the height of my trailer. To recap your getting increased height by upgrading the diameter of your axles, your also getting increased height by using a larger wheel and tire. One last thing I used different upper plates so I could install shocks on my trailer which it didn't have before. By adding shocks you will minimize the stress to your hub area which is important when adding bigger wheels and tires. I now have 6 inches of clearance between the bed rails of my truck and the bottom of the trailer. I have to admit my trailer looks like it is ready for the moon having the larger wheels and tires. I now have a 4x4 Jayco 5th wheel. Any way the above suggestions are my 2cents only so take it for what its worth. Good luck on your fabrications..... let us know what you decide to do.



Southbound

Do you have any pictures of your fifth wheel as I am curious to know what mine is going to look like when I raise it up, also have you had any problems since you have raised it up such as it becoming more top heavy?

Thanks Bob.

 

[Southbound]

Response

Hello Bob! Sorry for the late response... . I have been on the road a lot and haven't had a chance to respond. As far as the cost to upgrade my trailer I think it cost me around $600 for materials and around $500 for tires and wheels. I actually had a friend who is fairly handy with tools help me lift my trailer. Bob if you out-source this job to someone ..... please make sure they are qualified in their works. You would think that the dealer I bought my trailer from would know what they were doing but after inspections by area welders..... they were concerned by the quality of the welds on my my axle... ... which is why I ordered the axles with the saddle plates welded by the manufacturer. You mentioned something about being top heavy... . it doesn't really seem to be an issue. Now if you look at the trailer . . that would be the first thing to come to mind... . its way up there. I actually had to buy another step from Camping World so I could reach the first step of the fold-down stairs which are installed on the camper. I even thought about buying a 4x4 sticker for the back. As far as pictures I haven't figured out how to work my digital camera yet but I will see what I can do this weekend. I can actually send you prints of the before and after if you would like to see them. Send me an email with your address and I will send em to ya.



Southbound

 

[Ron Bissett]

Re: Late reply

Originally posted by Southbound

Hello Bob! I too had issues with my truck being to high so I had the dealer reverse my axles and re-weld my saddle plates to the top of my axles. This configuration only lasted one pull before failing. Basically I had to lean on my brakes one day coming home from the campground which in-turn put a lot of pressure on my axles which cause the welds to break on the saddle plates so my axles actually twisted and caused major damage. Typically when you raise your trailer you will tend to add more pressure points to both of your axles but also to your leaf springs to due the body roll... . caused by a higher center of gravity. The FIX: I went to a local Dexter axle dealer and ordered two new axles but this time I ordered 3inch axles instead of 2 inch which I originally had. I also had the saddle plates welded on top of my axles by the manufacturer which was done correctly. Note: with the three inch axles I was able to increase the size of the saddle plates which will give you better footing for your leaf-springs as well as larger U-bolts for added strength. After the axles came in I also went to a 16inch wheel and mounted some larger tires to increase the height of my trailer. To recap your getting increased height by upgrading the diameter of your axles, your also getting increased height by using a larger wheel and tire. One last thing I used different upper plates so I could install shocks on my trailer which it didn't have before. By adding shocks you will minimize the stress to your hub area which is important when adding bigger wheels and tires. I now have 6 inches of clearance between the bed rails of my truck and the bottom of the trailer. I have to admit my trailer looks like it is ready for the moon having the larger wheels and tires. I now have a 4x4 Jayco 5th wheel. Any way the above suggestions are my 2cents only so take it for what its worth. Good luck on your fabrications..... let us know what you decide to do.



Southbound

Just adding this now as to keep those that want to move the spring to top of axle safe way . The Kit from Dexter comes with welded on bolts that work with a large (special ) locator's nut to locate the new saddle to contact the old (original saddle for hight and can be tacked on or left as is aether way they help to keep the saddle from moving and are recommended to be welded(tacked on) I have mine on like this for over two years now and see no movement . I do not think the axle needs changing except for those that wan't heaver axle for more weight caring capacity . check it out at www.dexteraxle.com lol Ron in Louisville KY:-{}