Lowered my EGT 150/200 Degrees

[DIESELMAN]

in just 30 minutes... ... ... I removed the BD Outlook and installed my Westach and a new thermocouple, the temp dropped over 200 on top of scale and 80 - 125 at idle.



Why did I do this?? I didn't trust that I could be hitting 1450 degrees so easily and quickly, and everyone elses 600 was running cooler than mine. I put a torch to an Autometer, a Westach Dual, and my Outlook tonight, the probe that is.



When the Autometer and Westach read 500, the Outlook read 625, when the AUtometer and Westach read 1200, the Outlook read 1480.



When I was waiting for the Outlook to tell me that I had cooled to 350 degrees, I was already at about 275.



I swapped probes around and the results were always the same.



I am NOT a happy camper. ( who paid nearly $400, keeping in mind the high boost record is also bogus and doesn't work right either, and the underboost codes were also being set by the flakey plug on the rear of the unit )

 

[MichaelWright]

Your not the first I have heard complain of this with the Outlook. I'll stick with the old fasioned gauges, got enough wiz bang under the hood and in the cab.



Mike

 

[Yo Hoot]

They brag about all the great things it does..... if only it did them right. Not smart getting stuff out to market before it works.



I unloaded mine.

 

[Snow man]

BD has a reputation for products that are adequete at best,they do advertise very well. The exception is thier exhaust brake,it is excellent.

 

[DLeno]

guys. BD is in canada and sells exhaust brakes. Bulldog is in Idaho and sells the outlook.

 

[MarcRoth]

TST Oo.

 

[CLAYTON]

Is it possible that the metal on the Outlook is more receptive to heat so it will reach the real temp faster then other gauges or am I way off? Will the Outlook cool off faster too while the analog gauge holds the heat longer? Just a thought

 

[R.M.THOMPSON]

Your test wuold not have considered overall accuracey as much as speed. Is it to late to run a test in a controlled enviroment,like all three sendors/sensors in the kitchen oven. This is something a lot of us are interested in.

Mark T.

 

[DLeno]

speed: see TDR issue #47 coming soon, where I refer back to a previous issue (35 I think). A bunch of thermocouples were tested for speed -- the SPA was the fastest by far, the Westachs and a bunch of others were all about the same, the Pricols were a bit slow, and the Hewetts were abysmal.



the other issue is gauge accuracy. All type K gauges measure the difference in temperature between the manifold and ambient air. thats right, it is not an absolute measurement. So the accuracy of the guage is determined by two very important things:



1. where the ambient air sensor is, and how the temperature in that location varies

2. what assumptions the gauge has made about to the ambient temp



A very simple and effective way to insure 'good enough' accuracy is to use a long thermocouple lead, so that the "2nd" junction (ambient temperature sensor) is in a controlled environment in the cab. then calibrate the gauge to reflect a good assumption about the in-cab temp. For example, Westach puts the ambient temperature junction in the cab and assumes 70 degrees. They are one of the most accurate out there. probably others do the same -- a simple test is to look at how long the type K wire is. look for the location where type K wire changes to orginary coper wire. you want that location in the cab.



The other way to deal with accuracy is the SPA method. instead of assuming the temperature of the ambient sensor, they *measure it*. They use a temperature compensating electronic circuit like Fluke meters do to acheive dern near perfect accuracy to within 1 degree no matter what the conditions. nice.



you'll see in TDR 47 that Joe and I used the SPA gauge to measure EGTs on nine different fueling boxes, with interesting results.

 

[100 Proof]

Thanks Doug-



Come on issue 47! Out of curiosity, how does the X-Monitor do?



100 Proof

 

[BIG HAULERS]

man yall are making me nervous I just ordered the pup and outlook for my dad for a good price but if what yall are saying is true then it wont do him much good is their any way of geeting a base of what the thing is off and just compensate for the difference?

 

[DLeno]

the X-monitor was not tested. I think it came out just after the tests were completed and the results went to press. the editors comments indicate that.



Also, keep in mind that these tests were made some time ago. today's thermocouples may be different. But here are some ways to emperically infer accuracy:



1. read the gauge instructions. look for mention of the "2nd" junction and for a statement of accuracy. does the mfg acknowledge the issue or address the location of the 2nd junction>? I've only read the Westachs -- they are very specific about their calibrations: they assume 70 degrees ambient temperature, an excellent assumption I might add. So if you put the "2nd" junction in the cab, chances are that if an accurate EGT measurement is important, your in-cab temp will be close to 70 degrees and your gauge will probably be off by no more than 10-20 degrees.



2. look at the thermocouple leads. if the gnarly and stiff type-K wire is long, and extends into the cab, thats good. If the type K length is short, and converts to insulated copper wire after only a foot or two, thats bad. It means that your "ambient" temp is under the hood, which means that if you are really working the engine on a hot day, under hood temperatures could be very high, and your EGT gauge might be off by 100 degrees or more (remember, the gauge face reads the difference between manifold and ambient, and if ambient temp is hot, then the gauge will read low). But you have to understand the accuracy assumptions of the gauge to make this estimate.



3. Look at the thermocouple itself. fat thick ones are more durable but respond slow. thin, skinny ones are fast. If I can remember, I'll post a pic. after Xmas. I have examples of the two extreems -- a big fat slow Hewet, and a skinny small SPA.



by far the ultimate accuracy is obtained with the SPA gauage. hands down no questions asked thank you very much for playing, no contest. they use a temperature compensating chip to measure the temperature of the 2nd junction and dynamically calibrate, just like a fluke meter does. it is truly an instrument and not just a gauge. But I must ackknowledge that such accuracy is overkill for most applications

 

[DLeno]

Oh, as for the pup EGT gauge. I would contact bullydog and ask about accuracy. probably they'll figure it out.

 

[DIESELMAN]

My opinion, the Power pup is fine, it does exactly as promised,as expected, I just think you need a larger turbo housing on extreme and you need to open up the air-box. They need to do some software work but I am not dissapointed.



My comment was regarding the Outlook, it needs work. It is innacurate. It does not record high boost correctly regardless of the BS reason they give, it reports 'K' thermocouple outputs incorrectly as I did swap probes and the Outlook was always the odd man out, it is poorly constructed, my pipper pad is cut wrong and you can see inside the unit, there is a glue smear on the LCD, and the connector does not latch firmly and wiggles loose causing underboost codes to set. It needs work. On the plus side, it does report the correct rail pressure, unless you have a Box installed, and it does report the correct real time boost, and it defuels correctly though the setpoint for this is based on flawed input EGT.



My Probe test, shove all three probes through a drilled 2X4 along with my Fluke 'K' Tester and put a torch to them. I expected some error, just not what I saw. As for cold junction temps, that error is always linear and irrelevent, and in real world applications it is never more then 75 degrees off, 0F to 150F outside or underhood temp anyway, a needles width or so.



And by BD, yes I meant BDog not BD, Eh.



The preceding is just my opinion, take it or leave it.

 

[DLeno]

if the gauge has been calibrated to the center of the error swing, then yes 75 degrees plus or minus. But 100 degrees is something to sniff at, and would be relevant in my opinion. yea you can argue that 100 degrees is less than 10% and within the measurement error, and that is true, IF you knew what direction the error was. my only point here is that there are two very easy to deal with sources of error, and any gauge mfg with a lick of sense will minimize these errors to the point of irrelevance:



1. thermocouple speed. big and fat are slow. small and skinny are fast.

2. gauge accuracy / 2nd junction placement. place it in the cab and calibrate for 70 degrees and this error is not important. place it under the hood and calibrate for 70 degrees and this error is important for those who tow right on the edge of, say, 1350 degrees. the gauge will read 1350 but the exhaust gas temps could be as high as 1450.