Lug nuts: resistance to turning and based anti-seize ?

[verk]

Lug nuts: resistance to turning and the use of anti-seize ?

This truck with 140k miles has original lug nuts and my experience says that the nuts have gotten harder and harder to turn. Recently, the last time I rotated tires I actually couldn't get a couple started and ended up cross threading one and getting a replacement. The replacement turns much more easily. Some time ago, maybe at 50k miles, I put Permatex anti-seize ( aluminum based product ) on them, but I'm not sure if it was because they were getting hard to turn or I just thought it was a good idea seeing so many mechanics do the same over the years. Looking at the Permatex website, I see no mention of lug nuts as an application for any of their anti-seize products. I vaguely remember reading such a thread here or dieseltruckresource.com, but am unable to find. I think that what came out of that discussion is no anti-seize is called for or necessary. The service manual mentions oil for lug nuts but specifically for the DRW application.

So, has the anti-seize caused existing nuts to become difficult to turn or do nuts just do that over time ? Did using an impact gun to remove and start the lug nuts create excessive heat ( maybe some kind of galling or friction weld of anti-seize to nut threads ) ? I've purchased a complete set of Dorman lug nuts. Probably best to use a solvent to clean studs before replacing nuts ? Thanks for insights and suggestions.

 

[phantomusa]

I've used anti seize on lug nuts for my 50 years as a mechanic on everything from 18 wheelers to atv's and have never had a problem caused by anti seize
Problem's happen when lug nuts get over tighten lug nuts should be torqued to spec's other wise the nut or lug tread can be distorted causing it to become hard to remove
I've seen lug nuts run down stripping the treads and needing to be torched off
The worse I've seen was with the old style bud wheels with inter and outer lug nuts I changed 8 wheels where the outer nut was frozen to the inter nut this makes a mechanics life hell trying to remove both sets of wheels together after the inter nut square head gets sheared off
Always use anti seize and torque the lug nuts
Pappy

 

[jelag]

I purchased a die for the studs and a tap for the nuts... every other time I have them off the truck I run the die and tap across the threads.... as I get older, I worry about getting out and actually having to change a tire on the road.... often where we travel, road service might be 3-4 hours away.... once the threads are clean I use an anti-seize product to put a very thin coat on the threads... torque the nuts... and later go back and check the torque... whats nice about clean threads and a simple anti-seize on the threads is that the torque wrench pulls down evenly and smoothly.... when the tires are changed I watch and have had to yell at the so called tire pro..... but since we expect our trucks to go a couple hundred thousand miles... I expect it to be treated the same..

 

[verk]

Thanks for informative replies. Ah, so chances are that lug nuts were damaged when overtightened. I've noticed lug nuts much too tight on my vehicles returning from tire shops and service shops over the years. I don't see any professional using a torque wrench on lug nuts, my friends make fun of me when I torque them. What are you guys using for anti-seize ? I think the idea of chasing threads with a die is a good one, 9/16-18 UNF thread standard ? A rethreading die ?

 

[lpennock]

Discount tire has used a torque wrench every time they have worked on my vehicles. Sounds like you need a better professional.

Leonard Pennock (AD7AS)
Sent with Tapatalk

 

[Wayne M.]

I agree. The bottom of the conical seat crimps the threads when overtightened. I've seen it often in certain passenger car applications.
Im a big supporter of lubricating threads on anything, especially wheel studs. I'm a bigger fan of anti seize on the pilot hub of aluminum wheels too.
Get new nuts, a big tub of anti seize and a torque wrench.

 

[jelag]

I honestly don't think the brand of anti-seize makes a difference... its design is to apply a coating that protects and prevents fasteners from rusting and damage from weather.... pickup a good tap, and die.... since your only chasing threads you don't need a really high dollar one... I do have a personal story about Les Schawb in the pacific northwest... where after the guy broke off 2 studs, and the related repair... and the damage from the tire tech that occurred 35 miles later... but its really two long for this forum... on a 1st gen truck back in maybe 95 or 96... the good thing is we were not out of pocket... they paid all the bills including the renting of a replacement truck...

 

[Wayne M.]

Not really the brand, but the compound. There is cooper based, nickel based, and a few others special for marine, etc. you'll likely get a copper base from any chain parts store. A big can of loctite would run about $25.

 

[EDankievitch]

I found since Ram went to metric studs if you tourqued the studs to the factory settings it seems to crush the nuts conical end and damage them. If I recall the manual calls for 135-145 ftlbs I dropped down to 115-120 ftlbs and have not had an issue. I also use some never sieze figure it can't hurt....

 

[Wayne M.]

This is not an exaggeration. If you don't do this on this truck here in the rust belt, you'll need heat.

 

[mini14]

I used to anti seize my lugs years ago and experienced the same problem as you described, I only use wd40 when removing the nuts. no more anti sieze for me on lugs. I do use it on the backside of the aluminum rims to keep them from sticking.

 

[brods]

Lug nuts: resistance to turning and the use of anti-seize ?

Short answer is YES it makes a difference! Looking at bolt torque charts, lubricated fasteners typically have around half the torque spec to achieve proper tension. According to this chart http://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/bolt-torque-chart/ , grade 8 9/16-12 bolt torque is 77 ft lbs lubricated and 154 ft lbs dry.

After one of these anti seize threads on another forum I did a quick and dirty test on one lug on my 05. I torqued a nut to proper spec and marked the nut's position relative to the rim. Removed and repeated to see if it would stay the same, it did as it should. I then put anti seize on the threads only. Iirc the nut turned slightly further to achieve the torque spec. However when anti seize was on the nut face, the nut turned way farther to achieve the same torque reading. This means the actual stud tension was much higher when the nut was torqued to the dry spec with anti seize on the seat. The most surprising part of the test came when I tried to clean off the anti seize. It took several applications of brake cleaner to the nut and seat to get to where the nut stopped at the marked point with the proper torque. Once you get anti seize on the seat and press it in by tightening the nut it is very hard to completely remove.

My 05 has 138K in the rust belt and the rear fenders are starting to rust through along with all the other corrosion going on. Even so I have never felt the need to lubricate the threads on the wheel studs. I have used anti seize on other vehicles wheel studs before, but was very careful not to get any on the nut face. I have also used a few drops of oil on studs and, if I ever feel the need to lubricate any studs in the future, I will use oil. That said this is one of those can of worms topics, like pre filling your oil filter, where everyone has their own opinion and choose to ignore the manufacturers' recommendations. Unlike the oil filter where the Cummins and Dodge do recommend pre filling, when it comes to anti seize on the studs or lug nuts, when it is mentioned in FSMs, the answer is always no, similar to the following from a GM service bulletin:

Some customers may use penetrating oils, grease or other lubricants on wheel studs to aid in removal or installation. Always use a suitable cleaner/solvent to remove these lubricants prior to installing the wheel and tire assemblies. Lubricants left on the wheel studs may cause improper readings of wheel nut torque. Always install wheels to clean, dry wheel studs ONLY.

Notice: Lubricants left on the wheel studs or vertical mounting surfaces between the wheel and the rotor or drum may cause the wheel to work itself loose after the vehicle is driven. Always install wheels to clean, dry wheel studs and surfaces ONLY.

Doesn't get any clearer than that, the manufacturers say NO. What about big rigs? http://www.truckinginfo.com/article...t-potentially-deadly-wheel-off-accidents.aspx or http://fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth Again the answer is NO.

So you're going to have to make your own decision. Mfgs clearly say no. Seems like many people do it and wheels are not falling off all the time. YMMV

 

[sag2]

Just as was mentioned above by Brods, the antisieze allows the nut to be tightened more than required at the same torque. The service information (2012 2500) has this warning. I'm going to assume antisieze is similar to oil or grease as far as changing the way the fastener torques. The guys in the salt belt might disagree, but the factory has never used anything on the threads. I also assume they know something I don't.

NOTE:

Never use oil or grease on studs or nuts.

 

[Wayne M.]

If it means a possible life or death situation on the shoulder of a busy interstate, meaning fighting with a stuck wheel or getting it changed quickly, I'll take antiseize on the hub.

I had to sledgehammer the wheels off my '04 when it was 6 months old. There were posts about it here back in the day. My hubs have been coated since then without incident.

Getting back to the OP, overtightening a conical seat wheel nut will make free running on the stud hard if not damaging. Lube on the threads will exacerbate this, as brods stated.