Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Massive upgrades or cut losses and sell!

[jperell]

I have a 98. 5 24 valve, 5 speed 3500 dually. I love this truck but is has been letting me down lately. Lift pump and VP went out at 225,xxx miles, now truck has 241,xxx on it and i have the dead pedal, no power intermittently issue going on. Truck was at cummins for a week, they charged me $260 and told me they have no idea what is wrong. They want me to start throwing expensive parts at it as a guess, starting with the cummins ecm at $1200, but they are not sure it will fix it. Seems something is randomly telling the lift pump to drop pressure to 4-7 psi like in start mode, then it goes back up to 12-14 psi after anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. No check engine light but it does show pump timing failure codes. Both the Dodge computer and the Cummins computer seem to be cycling codes back and forth to each other. I have purchased a map sensor as an inexpensive and probably futile guess.

The truck has upgrades, makes pretty big power-edge box, 300 hp injectors, afe intake, banks turbo, banks 4 inch exhaust, banks exhaust brake, US gear overdrive splitter, 3. 54 diff.

The cummins people are basically clueless. They said it could be the cummins ecm, the dodge ecm, the VP or lift pump, the ignition switch, any of the various connections etc. basically no help to me whatsoever.

I have changed lift pumps out every 20k miles or less, fuel filters at least twice before the lift pumps. engine is in no way tired and burns no significant oil.

I need my truck to be dead-nuts reliable, i use it for numerous cross country trip every year hauling collector cars. Buying a new truck is out of my wallet range(the cummins people actually suggested this as a fix!) i dont have a spare 50 large sitting around. I am losing hope as to spending thousands more on this rig for it to possibly fail again soon!

Does someone make a badass VP that makes power and wont be so freakin delicate? should i install two F. A. S. S systems in it, one for active use and one for redundancy? Should i sell it as is and look for a 94-97 12 valver or a 02-04 new gen for a very hard to find resonable cost? Are the new gens any more reliable and can i make the same or more power than my truck easily? I drove a new HP 6 speed truck recently and it was a gutless wonder compared to my workhorse so i am concerned, one does get spoiled by Horsepower!

This is my problem and i am kinda freaking out about it!

Any help or advice with this dilemma would be helpfull!

Thanks, Lee in San Diego

 

[V-Metalworx]

I feel your pain if you really like this truck and you want to keep it why dont you check into junking the vp and go to the old p pump like on the 94-97 12 valve this would be an expensive fix but it will take the computers out of the way then you'll still have the good 24v engine

 

[jwilliams3]

Dead Peddle? Probably VP again. Maybe APPS. But thats probably it.



By the way you need a fuel pressure gauge to keep tabs on that lift pump.



$260 for no answer? I would take them to court.

 

[SSabick]

I second the P-Pump idea. Expensive, but cheeper than a new truck, oh yeah, and the HP!!! :--)

 

[GBrock]

I know you live in SD but check out relentlessdiesel.com. The owner there, Chris Strickland, is very honest and helpful. They have a forum where he answers questions. Not sure whether he'd be able to out-maneuver cummins reps but it's worth checking with him before you junk her.



My Uncle is a VP at a large Dodge and Ford dealership in Northern Cal. His nephew, my cousin, is their top mechanic (25 plus years experience). I remember debating with them, at a family outing, whether I should go new or used and whether I should go Dodge or Ford. Both my uncle and my cousin are invited to the factory fairly regularly. What stuck with me the most about their reccommendations was that, plain and simple, at both Ford and Dodge, they DO NOT engineer the vehicle to last more than 100K miles. Whilst the powertrain will often exceed 400K, it's all the other small components that your gambling with when it comes to long term vehicle ownership. Things such as hinges, bearing, gaskets, door handles, etc. Of course, there are thousands of owners who exceed 100K but somewhere around 250K the problems with all the other components start to add up.



Me? I didn't take their advicce. I went used on the last 3 trucks I have owned since that conversation, a '99 F450, a '99 DC 2500 and now my '01 DC 3500. I simply can't justify the $800 a month car note on a new one. Then again, I end up spending coin on fixing up my used vehicle so who knows which way is the more fiscally prudent way to go.



So whether you should cut your losses or hang in depends on how much money and TIME you want to spend. If it were me, I'd probably go new. Less headache and almost the same amount when you factor in the higher maintainence costs with used.



Ultimately, since I wanted to customize my ride a bit, I went used.

 

[HBarlow]

Lee,



Don't despair and don't sell/trade your truck. The dead pedal symptom is almost certainly caused by a failing APPS. The best evidence of a failing APPS, prior to complete failure is usually high idle rpm. In every case when mine has failed the first indication has been a failure to return to normal idle speed of 850 rpm. The absolute worst part on the second generation trucks is that poorly designed cheap piece of xxxx. I have replaced four or five on my truck in the past year . . . approximately one every 35,000 miles!



I think my failure rate is extremely high but don't know why other than lots of miles.



Harvey

 

[y-knot]

i find these post funny, You ask complete strangers about what you should do personally and financially. You pretty much answered your self when you stated you do not have the 50"Large" for a new truck, if so then you will need to fix the one you have now, or trade it off for a used one. Trading it off for a older truck then what you have now seems counter productive, besides you have a huge amount invested in the truck now. So, the only practical thing to do is to fix the truck you have. I would take it to a different diesel shop and see what they think, and if they can not fix it then I would go to another shop. If the problem lies in the ECM, PCM or any other electronic control device, a quick and simple scan should find the problem. Make sure that were ever you do take the truck, they have the latest diagnostic equipment to throughly trouble shoot your truck.

I am not a fan of throwing parts randomly into a truck with the hope of maybe finding the answer. Unfortunately you are a victim of your own making, any time you heavily modify a vehicle to the extent that you have, it makes it very hard for the technicians to trouble shoot. You may have to travel to the next closest diesel shop that specializes in modified diesel trucks, like one that advertises here on the TDR. I would also contact the people that sell the FASS system and see what they think?? Good luck, in your pursuit, there is nothing worse then a sick diesel.

 

[Jed]

Lee,

A friend of mine has a shop in el cajon and he also will do mobile if needed, he works out of an pump shop and has acess to all types of fuel parts. He has done several p-pump conversions and is a FASS dealer. If he can not diagnose your problem he probably would not charge you. He is a racer and is very familiar with modified trucks. His number is 619 733 1108 his name is Steve his company is Diesel Systems Service.

Jed

 

[BLively]

i agree with V-KNOT. i'm not a diesel tech, but i had a similar problem with my truck. after spending bookooz of money on ''quick-fix'' parts that didnt do a thing, it ended up being the computer on the vp. i only ran the thing for two weeks when it died on me. but like they say, you play you pay. just my $. 02

 

[BManuel]

i find these post funny, You ask complete strangers about what you should do personally and financially. You pretty much answered your self when you stated you do not have the 50"Large" for a new truck, if so then you will need to fix the one you have now, or trade it off for a used one. Trading it off for a older truck then what you have now seems counter productive, besides you have a huge amount invested in the truck now. So, the only practical thing to do is to fix the truck you have. I would take it to a different diesel shop and see what they think, and if they can not fix it then I would go to another shop. If the problem lies in the ECM, PCM or any other electronic control device, a quick and simple scan should find the problem. Make sure that were ever you do take the truck, they have the latest diagnostic equipment to throughly trouble shoot your truck.

I am not a fan of throwing parts randomly into a truck with the hope of maybe finding the answer. Unfortunately you are a victim of your own making, any time you heavily modify a vehicle to the extent that you have, it makes it very hard for the technicians to trouble shoot. You may have to travel to the next closest diesel shop that specializes in modified diesel trucks, like one that advertises here on the TDR. I would also contact the people that sell the FASS system and see what they think?? Good luck, in your pursuit, there is nothing worse then a sick diesel.

Y-knot,

Give the guy a break. He was just asking for a little advise and possibly a little sympathy! Not to get blasted for the prior modifications he has made to his truck. Looks like you have made a bunch of mods to your truck. Will you blast yourself when your truck breaks? Just my opinion.

 

[jperell]

Thanks, i will give the Diesel systems Guy are call. I think i will investigate the P pump conversion as well.

Lee in San Diego

 

[Rman]

If it were me and I had the coin I'd p-pump it. You're problem sounds like a faulty connection somewhere. I'm a hardware/software integrator (and electronics tech that writes software) and I see this kind of crap daily at work. Short of ringing out the harness, it's a very difficult find. If your lift pump is behaving that erratic I'd try and isolate that connection, and try to visually see the pulse with an O-scope. Maybe the ECM is faulty.

 

[rivercat]

WHy not just add a relay to a ignitin on circut so that as long as the key is in the run position the pump is triggered?

As far as the ECM Im sure BOB WAGNER could help you out on that end at least with a loaner to test with.

 

[master1578]

If a new truck is out of the question, then I would suggest fixing the one you have. It may be a pain to work through but you know your truck and all of it's quirks. For someone who needs a reliable truck, buying something used seems like a big gamble. Who knows what kind of mess you might be stepping into. Then you're right back where you started.



My . 02



Best of luck, whatever you decide.

 

[EricBu12]

If you are interested in a hot shot VP44, Brady at Industrial Injection makes one for high hosepower... see his site at www.industrialinjection.com

 

[hdtrukn]

Got a Torqus Maximus ECM if you want to try that.

If it works $250 if not send it back.

It the factory HP model for stick trucks 1999 should be fine on your 1998. 5

Also check Ebay for a new APPS, see them on there under $200.

Thanks

Scott

 

[PatrickCampbell]

You can check the voltage of your APPS compared to what it is supposed to be for free. If your APPS dies or is dying shouldn't you get a Voltage out of range error though? $260 could've gotten you nearly a new APPS. I would never pay someone who tells me "Sorry I dunno"; that is not a diagnosis.



Cummins ECM? There is no Cummins ECM on a Dodge truck. There is a PCM and ECM. Both are Dodge parts. You can (or at least could in the past) get a Mad ECM from Bob Wagner for around $750 without a core...

 

[DavidTD]

I have a 98. 5 24 valve, 5 speed 3500 dually. I love this truck but is has been letting me down lately. Lift pump and VP went out at 225,xxx miles, now truck has 241,xxx on it and i have the dead pedal, no power intermittently issue going on. Truck was at cummins for a week, they charged me $260 and told me they have no idea what is wrong. They want me to start throwing expensive parts at it as a guess, starting with the cummins ecm at $1200, but they are not sure it will fix it. Seems something is randomly telling the lift pump to drop pressure to 4-7 psi like in start mode, then it goes back up to 12-14 psi after anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. No check engine light but it does show pump timing failure codes. Both the Dodge computer and the Cummins computer seem to be cycling codes back and forth to each other. I have purchased a map sensor as an inexpensive and probably futile guess.

The truck has upgrades, makes pretty big power-edge box, 300 hp injectors, afe intake, banks turbo, banks 4 inch exhaust, banks exhaust brake, US gear overdrive splitter, 3. 54 diff.

The cummins people are basically clueless. They said it could be the cummins ecm, the dodge ecm, the VP or lift pump, the ignition switch, any of the various connections etc. basically no help to me whatsoever.

I have changed lift pumps out every 20k miles or less, fuel filters at least twice before the lift pumps. engine is in no way tired and burns no significant oil.

I need my truck to be dead-nuts reliable, i use it for numerous cross country trip every year hauling collector cars. Buying a new truck is out of my wallet range(the cummins people actually suggested this as a fix!) i dont have a spare 50 large sitting around. I am losing hope as to spending thousands more on this rig for it to possibly fail again soon!

Does someone make a badass VP that makes power and wont be so freakin delicate? should i install two F. A. S. S systems in it, one for active use and one for redundancy? Should i sell it as is and look for a 94-97 12 valver or a 02-04 new gen for a very hard to find resonable cost? Are the new gens any more reliable and can i make the same or more power than my truck easily? I drove a new HP 6 speed truck recently and it was a gutless wonder compared to my workhorse so i am concerned, one does get spoiled by Horsepower!

This is my problem and i am kinda freaking out about it!

Any help or advice with this dilemma would be helpfull!

Thanks, Lee in San Diego

Lee, I too have a 98. 5 3500 and we have about the same miles. Mine got a new VP44 yesterday, and got a new APPS about a month ago. I'd bet your dead peddle is the APPS, that is exactly what mine did. When it first does it, no codes, then eventually it will throw a code and set the check engine light.



And btw, in those 240k miles, I am on my 2nd lift pump, 2nd VP and 2nd APPS.



If you like your truck, and everything else is working to your satisfaction, why not keep it. Everyone talks about getting a diesel for the long life, then sells them off before they reach 100k. Like everything, as it gets older it will need some things, but I can replace a lot of stuff for the amount of the average payment of today.