Max Tow test by TDR Issue 75

[NIsaacs]

Dodge lost



Actually it was a good competitive test, pulling a 19,400 lb trailer, I wonder if the drivers had CDL's The only segment Dodge won was the exhaust brake test on the Davis Dam Hill, and lost it to the Chevy on the Eisenhower Pass.



One interesting note for you 4. 10 guys, the Dodge had it and the Ford and Chevy used 3. 73's and out pulled the Dodge loaded or empty. Too much torque management?



Nick

 

[AH64ID]

Dodge lost

Actually it was a good competitive test, pulling a 19,400 lb trailer, I wonder if the drivers had CDL's The only segment Dodge won was the exhaust brake test on the Davis Dam Hill, and lost it to the Chevy on the Eisenhower Pass.

One interesting note for you 4. 10 guys, the Dodge had it and the Ford and Chevy used 3. 73's and out pulled the Dodge loaded or empty. Too much torque management?

Nick

I haven't read the test yet, but if the testing was done on acceleration the additional hp will certainly shine on the Chevy/Ford, the Ram will do as well maintaining speed in higher gears, but as soon as a downshift is required the 50 extra hp is hard to miss!

As for the gearing, every gear in the 6R140 is lower than the 68RFE. In fact a Ford with 3. 55's is geared lower in 1-4 and 6 than the Ram, and 5th is only a . 2% difference. Here is the difference in all 3 with the gears you listed.

1st: Ford (10%) - Ram (13%) - GM
2nd: Ford (12%) - Ram (11%) - GM
3rd: Ram (2%) - Ford (7%) - GM
4th: Ford (4%) - Ram (9%) - GM
5th: Ram (5%) - Ford (17%) - GM
6th: Ram (3%) - Ford (9%) - GM

The %ages are how much the listed truck has over the next in line, so in 1st gear Ford has a 10% mechanical advantage over Ram, and Ram has a 13% mechanical advantage over GM. Looking at those numbers it's easy to see how 50hp will make a big difference in a heavy towing test.

While I have no desire to go to a GM product, they have a pretty good truck these days.

 

[NIsaacs]

Actually per the article, the GM has the highest gears of all the trucks in 1-2 and 5-6 with 3-4 the same as the Dodge. The Dodge had the smallest tires too. The Ford had the lowest transmission gears for 1-6. but lost to the lower powered GM.



Nick

 

[AH64ID]

Those numbers include the rear axle ratio, and you can see that it has the highest gearing of all of them, especially with the 3. 73's.

If you don't account for the axle gearing then the article is correct.

It's not the first test Ford has lost to GM on.

 

[NIsaacs]

Okay my bad, the gragh makes sense now with the percentage as overall.



It was kinda bad with GM beating out the Dodge by almost 3 minutes on Eisenhower and 2 minutes on Davis Dam. Thats a bunch. I better avoid the GM on the hills, might take a stab at the new Dodge tho



Nick

 

[AH64ID]

Hills like that are in the hp category, for normal towing I think the Ram will hold it's own, but a steep hill at high elevation and a heavy load takes lower gears, rpms, and hp and the GM has 2/3 of those for the win.

Again, I am not a GM advocate. . I love my Cummins and like my Dodge ;-) and am not changing anytime soon.

I have probably 450/900 talking crank power and would get schooled by all 3 based on my truck having a manual and I'm not changing that.

 

[NIsaacs]

I have probably 450/900 talking crank power and would get schooled by all 3 based on my truck having a manual and I'm not changing that.

I disagree, I think the manual would prevail on the long steep grades, down hill also. The Cummins doesn't like high RPM. I think the test would have been more competitive if the drivers would have used manual choice in gear selection versus letting the auto do it's thing.



On the 7% Eisenhower grade the Dodge was only pulling 40 mph, the GM was 51mph. Since the test was using WOT, I think the transmission was in the wrong gear for the lower rpm design of the Cummins. WOT might keep the transmission out of lock up also??



I am going to guess and say the Dodge was probably in 3rd gear at 3000+ rpm instead of 4th at about 2300 rpm. You can probably figure it out with your knowledge of gear ratios and speed. What gear do you think it was in, at 40 mph?



Nick

 

[NIsaacs]

Come on guys, 113 views and only two posters? I need some help here, I am just mad cuz the Dodge got beat so bad and am looking for excuses



Nick

 

[AClayton]

All 3 trucks are great these days... as far as raw power. Put 200k miles on the GM and the Ford and then do the test. Plus, based on the new trucks that I have looked at, the Dodge is sold for much less. You can purchase a lot of extra fuel in the Dodge. Another advantage that the author only touched on was the DEF: he stated the DEF usage was minimal and even if you added the amount used, the others would still win. The important factor here is that Dodge doesn't need DEF to meet FED requirements. So all that 'extra' equipment is needed... which adds overall cost to the initial truck plus maintenance on it as the truck ages.
For many yrs, Ford and GM have outperformed our Dodges in all out hp tests and now even mpg tests. I'd like to pose a question: Who in the world ever floorboards their diesels pulling heavy up steep grades? I tow at a respectable speed based on egt, trans temp, engine temp and oil temp and adjust my speed and power appropriately. My truck has enough power to shred the drivetrain into mechanical 'junk' but that doesn't mean I can use it all. In a gas truck or V8 diesel, it is customary and considered normal driving tactics, to floorboard the accelerator on hard pulls..... our trucks actually deliver more power down low without the need to over-rev. Less revolutions = more longetivity

 

[champspa]

what's the problem with the Dodge they always win the long lasting test , the ease of maintenance , and the best looking . they do lack in the pull a little bit . I'll take the 6

 

[AH64ID]

I disagree, I think the manual would prevail on the long steep grades, down hill also. The Cummins doesn't like high RPM. I think the test would have been more competitive if the drivers would have used manual choice in gear selection versus letting the auto do it's thing.

A lot depends on the speed/load/grade, that . 82 5th gear is a pretty awesome ratio for pulling grades, and right between the 1. 00 5th and . 73 6th on my NV5600, which means I am either screaming or going slower. So a lot of it depends on speed. But in this test where they were heavy enough to use 4th on the 68RFE I probably could have pulled on them( and made up for slower acceleration) and 43-45, but don't have the next gear to use if I got any faster and pulling grades at 2900 rpms isn't my style.

But when your that heavy it's direct or lower, so those OD's are of little importance. So yeah your probably right on this load, but every load is different.

On the 7% Eisenhower grade the Dodge was only pulling 40 mph, the GM was 51mph. Since the test was using WOT, I think the transmission was in the wrong gear for the lower rpm design of the Cummins. WOT might keep the transmission out of lock up also??

I am going to guess and say the Dodge was probably in 3rd gear at 3000+ rpm instead of 4th at about 2300 rpm. You can probably figure it out with your knowledge of gear ratios and speed. What gear do you think it was in, at 40 mph?

Nick

Assuming a locked converter, 1850 in 4th, or 2600 in 3rd, so I am guessing 3rd.

GM would have been 2950 in 3rd, which is where that 50 hp made the difference.

I bet if you did a Seattle to Salt Lake to Denver via Cheyenne and back via 70 the Ram would probably hold it's own a lot better on the varied terrain and in fuel economy.

Who in the world ever floorboards their diesels pulling heavy up steep grades? I tow at a respectable speed based on egt, trans temp, engine temp and oil temp and adjust my speed and power appropriately. My truck has enough power to shred the drivetrain into mechanical 'junk' but that doesn't mean I can use it all.

My thought is who in the world builds and tows with a truck that can shred their drive-train and not use their power?

I'd much rather have a 400 rwhp truck that is built so I can use 100% of my power 95% of the time (eleveation is the biggest killer with a single turbo), than have to worry about EGT's, trans, etc on every grade. Put it at a speed I can maintain, and want to drive and set cruise control. I will be good on EGT's, oil, temps, etc because I built the system to work at that hp level. If that's WOT then ok, it's a diesel they are fine at WOT for extended periods.

Having a 500-600hp truck that you have to be careful with when towing seems silly to me.

 

[mwilson]

Come on guys, 113 views and only two posters? I need some help here, I am just mad cuz the Dodge got beat so bad and am looking for excuses



Nick

My dooryard is full of Mopars, I don't need no stinkin' hill climbing fiasco to help me decide.



I know what will run the longest and is the best.



Put me in that Dodge and run the test again when it has 50,000 miles or so on it, they will work a lot harder to go by me... ..... Oo.



It upsets me everytime these "Towing Comparisons" come out, there is so much important info that gets left out such as post warranty repair costs, ease of servicing, longevity, and so on.



Just using who can get to the top first as the benchmark with 3 jockeys that are not CDL drivers does not put the Cummins in a good light.



Holding the pedal to the floor like it was a 350 Chevy gasser is not how you make a Cummins shine.



Mike.

 

[RustyJC]

Funny thing. I just go hitch up to my 16K GVWR 5th wheel, go anywhere I want to go (even up the side of a mountain to a campground in Hot Springs, AR), get there and back home with no problems, run down the Interstate at 65 MPH with the cruise control on, listening to the iPod or satellite radio, perfectly comfortable and not even thinking about the fact that my poor, underpowered truck is only 350/650. It does what I ask it to do. What am I missing here?



Rusty

 

[mwilson]

I have probably 450/900 talking crank power and would get schooled by all 3 based on my truck having a manual and I'm not changing that.

No, you would school them. No doubt about it in my mind.



Mike.

 

[AClayton]

A lot depends on the speed/load/grade, that . 82 5th gear is a pretty awesome ratio for pulling grades, and right between the 1. 00 5th and . 73 6th on my NV5600, which means I am either screaming or going slower. So a lot of it depends on speed. But in this test where they were heavy enough to use 4th on the 68RFE I probably could have pulled on them( and made up for slower acceleration) and 43-45, but don't have the next gear to use if I got any faster and pulling grades at 2900 rpms isn't my style.



But when your that heavy it's direct or lower, so those OD's are of little importance. So yeah your probably right on this load, but every load is different.







Assuming a locked converter, 1850 in 4th, or 2600 in 3rd, so I am guessing 3rd.



GM would have been 2950 in 3rd, which is where that 50 hp made the difference.



I bet if you did a Seattle to Salt Lake to Denver via Cheyenne and back via 70 the Ram would probably hold it's own a lot better on the varied terrain and in fuel economy.







My thought is who in the world builds and tows with a truck that can shred their drive-train and not use their power?



I'd much rather have a 400 rwhp truck that is built so I can use 100% of my power 95% of the time (eleveation is the biggest killer with a single turbo), than have to worry about EGT's, trans, etc on every grade. Put it at a speed I can maintain, and want to drive and set cruise control. I will be good on EGT's, oil, temps, etc because I built the system to work at that hp level. If that's WOT then ok, it's a diesel they are fine at WOT for extended periods.



Having a 500-600hp truck that you have to be careful with when towing seems silly to me.

Exactly!..... that is the reason I detuned my truck down to about 350rwhp. All the timing and fuel the box I had put down impressive numbers on a dyno but towing was nearly impossible. Not really due to the extra power as much as it made the Cummins touchy on applying torque. It vibrated badly and I thought it was going to rip my TC out. As far as needing WOT... ... ... I guess I don't need to tow that fast up a hill at the expense of waisted fuel and transmission damage. On my truck, there is little difference between 2200 and 3200. Anything over 2000 rpm's seems to be waisted energy and if I can't maintain a grade at that level, then I simply drop a gear, reduce my speed and keep the same rpm at the lower gear. Most grades with my truck can be pulled in OD at about 1800 doing 65mph... ... ... I'm sure by now you've realized I have the 3. 55's. Getting back to the waisted energy over 2000rpm's: What I mean is, I can maintain my speed at that level, but any kind of anticipated acceleration will initiate a downshift and rev my Cummins in a lower gear to do the same work. Why not just maintain my speed until the load initiates a downshift and then I slow down. I have the power to maintain, just choose not to use it for fear of abusing the transmission and revving my Cummins unnecessarily. When your truck is modded, they are a little more responsibilities to be conscious of.

 

[NIsaacs]

Rusty, you are not missing anything. I think we can all agree they don't come any finer (your truck) except another one just like it.



I am just thinking out loud, trying to figure out why the Dodge faired so bad in the test. I also understand the testers had to do everything the same. The WOT thing was an advantage for the V/8's, especially if WOT unlocks the converter. Maybe someone with the new trucks can verify this?



Nick

 

[DRyder]

I personaly think they should put the big three against a cost of ownership/reliability test. I'm not able to go and buy the newest diesel out there due to their prices, I think this fact reverberates through to the used truck sector as well keeping values high on rigs that are rolling on ten years with 100k plus mileage.

I could give two hoots an a holler about Chevys award winning power, I say simple is better. Look under the hood of the Ford and Chevy, what a mess of crap, where do you start? You are 100% dependent on the ******* for maintenance. No thank you.

Dave

 

[AH64ID]

No, you would school them. No doubt about it in my mind.

Mike.

Maybe so, but I am still jealous of the double OD's! I just like running in the 2200-2500 rpm range on hills and that would be 54-61 in 5th and 74-84 in 6th. But 65 is a comfortable speed for most the hills around here and for traffic, I just don't have the rpms in 6th or like that many in 5th. I do have the power to pull 6-7% grades at 70 at about 16K GCW, with my worse than a barn door TT in 6th. . so I guess I shouldn't complain!

I really want a 7 speed manual, with 1-5 the same as my current gears and 6th being a . 85 and 7th being a . 65 with 4. 10's it would be a great setup for mountain towing at 65.

Anyhow, back on track!

 

[NIsaacs]

Yup, 7 gears would be great. With the 15 gears in my Ford, and 4. 10's, no mater what the grade or load, I always have a gear to match for running in the best RPM. Even tho the power output is way less than my '01, it pulls almost as good.



My two overs are exactly what you mentioned. Overdrive in the Aux. is 0. 85 with 5th in the main at 0. 80 or combined 0. 65. If fact, I actually have 3 overdrive choices..... 4th in the main and over in the Aux. is 0. 85, 5th in the main and direct in the Aux. is 0. 80, then double over is 0. 65... . 5th at 0. 80 and under at 1. 27 is 1. 07 a good ratio but a poor choice because of the weak 5th gear so I don't use it.



Nick

 

[AClayton]

You have any pics of your truck Nick? I've seen a few trucks on youtube with twin-sticks and they were fun to watch as the drivers row thru the gears.