Mazda RX-8, anyone know much about them?

[WAckerman]

My sister has an 05 RX-8 (rotary engine) that she bought this year used. Last weekend the car died going up a freeway on-ramp. The symptoms as she described them were loss of RPM and speed. She pulled over and engine died, and failed to restart. Towed to dealer.



This week service rep stated that motor had "flooded" and they were investigating as to why. Today, they say that engine is full of "oily muddy substance" and that they are holding off warranty work until Mazda rep. can see the motor...



I guess my question is what the H*** could have happened? I am not familier with rotary's to even make a guess. My sis always has this car serviced by this dealer (only Mazda dealer in 20 miles or so) and has always had her oil changes done by the dealer. My fear is that Mazda is going to claim abuse or some BS about engine oil services and deny warranty. Dealer is claiming he has "never" seen anything like this...



I hope someone can help me better understand what might have happened.



Thanks in advance, and I'm sorry it was such a long explaination...

 

[JasonCzerak]

My sister has an 05 RX-8 (rotary engine) that she bought this year used. Last weekend the car died going up a freeway on-ramp. The symptoms as she described them were loss of RPM and speed. She pulled over and engine died, and failed to restart. Towed to dealer.



This week service rep stated that motor had "flooded" and they were investigating as to why. Today, they say that engine is full of "oily muddy substance" and that they are holding off warranty work until Mazda rep. can see the motor...



I guess my question is what the H*** could have happened? I am not familier with rotary's to even make a guess. My sis always has this car serviced by this dealer (only Mazda dealer in 20 miles or so) and has always had her oil changes done by the dealer. My fear is that Mazda is going to claim abuse or some BS about engine oil services and deny warranty. Dealer is claiming he has "never" seen anything like this...



I hope someone can help me better understand what might have happened.



Thanks in advance, and I'm sorry it was such a long explaination...

rotary motors are historicly crappy. They make excellent power when working, but they are not very durable.

 

[MJaynes]

i had a 12a rotary in an rx7 from the early 80's thru about 1990... put about 120k on it without any problems... then a higher performance 13b(wanted more power)drove it a couple more yrs. no problems. this motor was frequently

reved past 8000 r. p. m. s qtr. mile in about 11. 5. if i didn't get on it much almost 30 mpg. very,very durable. with a few easy mods car pulled almost a full g lateral due to the wonderfull balance from the light engine.

one of the best sports car engines ever built... ... . but back on the subject,

sounds like the oil cooler sprung a leak... this can happen or used to could and mix with engine oil... but would likely still run. ? just an idea,mike

 

[tpuig]

We've got an '04 RX-8 with auto trans. Great car for the wife, and she doesn't drive it hard. There is a TSB out for these cars about fuel flooding on startup and the procedure on how to start the car when it's flooded. I <believe> that Mazda addressed that issue in the computer of the '05, but am not sure. There are a couple Mazda forums, and the RX-8 info is very good. But be prepared for a different type of car culture.

The rotary engine does burn oil. The harder you drive it, the more it burns, and the gas mileage isn't very good. But they are fun cars, and at least our dealer is good. I'd do a search for Mazda forums and read up a bit. Depending on who the previous owner was, the car could have had a tough life. That may or may not have something to do with the condition of the oil. But don't let the dealer bs her, especially since they did the oil changes. Good luck, hope this helps.

TP

 

[WAckerman]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help. I agree that the cars history is important at this point. I know my sister doesn't baby the car, but she does not drive the car hard...



She had the car in a couple weeks ago for a recall. She wasn't sure exactly what they did but says they made changes to the ECM, so maybe they didn't get the flooding changes to the 05's...



Mike, I was thinking something like that as well. Either fuel/oil mx or coolant/oil mix... I don't know though.



Rep is looking at it now... I'll post back when we know more. Again thanks for helping!

 

[mazdarotary]

I am what many would call a mazda rotorhead,and I owned a 04 RX-8 6 speed base model for 12 months on a lease. I loved the car,and miss it dearly. I only got out of the lease a year early because it was just a toy,and we bought alarger house.



Tell your sister that the flooding issue is one that mazda knows of,and has even been addressed in the owners manual(atleast my 04 did). Mazda has had flooding issues with every fuel injected rotory they have ever sold,and I don't think it is a major issue if you know what not to do. The biggest thing is try not to start the car when it is cold,and then move it 50 feet,and shut it down. That is a recipe for a flooding. I am guessing she has more than a flooding issue though if the car died while she was driving it.



Your sister should have,or will be receiving a recall in the mail soon(I did on a car I have not owned for 14 months) regarding a engine compression check that could lead to a new engine if the vacuum specs/compression don't check out. There have been a few issues with the Renesis engine since they brought it out,as it is the most technologically advanced rotary ever made by mazda,and the RX-8 is probably the most self aware car mazda has ever made.



If I were her I wouldn't worry too much,as Mazda knows of these issues,and should back her up with warrenty work especially if it need a new motor with this volluntary recall they are doing.



I would suggest she goes onto www.rx8club.com and if she can wade through all the a-holes,and d-heads on there she will learn lots about the car/engine.



What a previous poster said about the engines not being reliable is a crock of you know what. I have owned many rotary mazdas over the years,and they are just like any piston engine in that you will get a few bad ones,but the good ones out weigh them,and it really comes down to maintinence. The rotary requires a little more dilligence on checking oil level,and such,but the are super reliable,and run great. The biggest thing is people are scared of them because they are different,but they are really very simple machines,that the public lost faith in when mazda had issues with the early ones in the 70's,and GM pulled the plug on their plans of a rotary lineup(with the Monza designed around a rotary) after getting cold feet.



If GM,or any of the big three had followed up on their plans of rotary then the technology would be far advanced,but unfortunatly it is a one horse town when it come to rotaries,and mazda is that horse.



Good luck,and if you have any questions feel free to PM me.



Chris

 

[WAckerman]

Thanks Chris!

I'm forwarding her this thread as I type. I will make sure she follows up on the recall notice with this current problem. Do you know if Mazda has a place, like Dodge does, where she can get recall and/or TSB info?

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

I used to work for Mazda as a parts guy in 1985/1986. I can tell you that we replaced 10 rotary engines for every other type of other engine combined. We used to stock them... so while I agree they're not a total POS, they're not exactly a gem either. In my years working as a Tech I saw a couple of engines sludge up. One from coolant in the oil (as stated above), some from abuse, and once from a guy adding veggie oil. . because he was out of motor oil.

 

[DieselTweaker]

The RX-8 had a problem with condensation forming in the crankcase but if the oil has been changed every 3000 miles you should be ok.



I have seen a few Rotor housings crack causing a coolant leak, and required engine replacement my time in the Mazda dealer I replaced 5 engines in RX-8's and 3 were just plain abuse.



The ECM reflash she just had was probably for the oil metering pump, actually inject's oil into the rotor housings to keep the motor alive! In some case due to lack of rotor oiling the apex seals wear out and the engine looses compression.



Mazda has tried alot of different ECM recalibrations to cure the flooding issue but hasn't helped the main problem is the intake side of the rotor housing, at low rpm's fuel will pool in the intake, but work's sweet at higher RPM where the motor like's to run. Most of the time you will flood the vehicle while just moving it out of your garage and parking it on the street, or anything the motor is not up to operating temp, in that case as per mazda rev engine to 4000rpms and shut the vehicle off. In cases when the vehicle is flooded "de-choking" the engine can be a very big pain in the butt, and most of the time requires replacement of the spark plugs, Mazda had a TSB and wanted all battery's, starters, and spark plugs replaced on all warranty cases. The spark plug set alone is over 100. 00 bucks.



And about the engines not being reliable... ... I beg to differ! They are a very reliable engines, as long as you keep oil in the car and changed you can beat the crap out of the engine and it will take it! The higher on the RPM's the better they like it! And how else can you make 247hp with 1. 3liter's! In stock form!!!!!!!



Zach

Senior Mazda Tech





P. S. if you have any questions feel free to PM me

 

[mazdarotary]

Very well put Zach. The rotary is mis-understood,and scary to most. If you treat them like a toyota 22R they will not last long,but if you keep them happy with lots of oil,and keep them cool they will last just as long as any other engine even with constant redline pulls.



From my experience driving them really light,and easy is worse for them than some spirited driving. They don't like to overheat though(no engine does,right),and unlike a piston engine that may warp the head,and blow out the head gasket a rotary requires a full tear-down to fix its"head gasket" trouble.





I have seen videos online of people running with no coolant in a rotary at 8000 rpm sustained engine speed for over 10 minutes,and the engine didn't croak. I drove my 83 around for a week on one rotor,and it still ran(poorly),but it ran.



Moeller uses rotary power for its Sky-Car,and they are used for lots of other aviation applications due to their reliability.



Also the displacement numbers are a bit skewed compared to a piston engine because the rotary displaces the smae amount all the time unlike a piston engine that is really only displacing half of its rated displacement at any given point in the stroke. A piston engine of 6 litres is really only a 3 litre engine,and a rotary is rated at say 1. 3 litres is that at all times. In fact mazda rates the 13B engine as a 2. 6 litre in other countries due to this math discrepency.



Too bad the rotary doesn't make good torque allthough the renesis is better. A turbo rotary makes good torque but with that you don't have the N/A reliability.



Chris

 

[DieselTweaker]

I like them between 8000 and 14000 rpms they just sound right :-laf



All and all they are very good, but to really feel what they have you need to drive a stick car nothing like shifting at 8500 with factory shift light and chime LOL.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Zach,

Thanks for mentioning the fact that the engine is supposed to consume oil. There are plenty of RX-7/8 owners, and opponents of the rotarys that speak badly of them for that... as if they're not able to hold their oil. . like a piston engine.

joe

 

[JasonCzerak]

I was always curious about the displacement question with a rotory. Looking at a diagram and animation, you have 3 sides constantly in one phase of each "stroke". There for you would have 3 "pistons per rotor" correct?





If you search on the web for reliability in cars (where people don't have clues to take care of things). the mazda's were one of the worst. car and driver had to put 12 extra quarts of oil in the RX-8 in 30,000 miles.



Like any motor, if you take care of it, it'll be fine. .



And I've heard and seen many of stories where that mazda motor does very well in performance applications, and that's respectable.

 

[RustyJC]

car and driver had to put 12 extra quarts of oil in the RX-8 in 30,000 miles.

1 quart every 2500 miles seems pretty reasonable when you consider that oil is being injected into the combustion chamber area to lubricate the apex seals. I've seen piston engines use far more than that!!



Rusty

 

[mazdarotary]

1 quart every 2500 miles seems pretty reasonable when you consider that oil is being injected into the combustion chamber area to lubricate the apex seals. I've seen piston engines use far more than that!!



Rusty

Thanks Rusty,



Mazda will never win with some people. So many people can't wrap their heads around the fact that mazda designed the engine to burn oil. The higher you rev it the more oil is used. My old school rotaries actually have a small oil injection pump with an actuating rod attached from it to the throttle linkage to vary the amount of oil injected. The newer mazda rotaries do it with electronics to vary oil ussage,but it is all connected to the right foot.



Still to this day Mazda is the ONLY Japanese manufacturer to win the 24hr of LeMans race,and they did it with ROTARY power. Hows that for reliability?

 

[RustyJC]

I'm used to the concept. Our large 2-cycle industrial engines also inject oil through the power cylinders/cylinder liners for piston and ring lubrication. Typical consumption rates are 10,000 BHP-hours/gallon. This oil is drawn from the crankcase and injected by a lubricator pump and distribution block system. The crankcase has a level controller to automatically keep it full of oil drawn from the main lube oil storage tank(s) at the facility. The Wankel engine isn't that much different in regards to oil injection.



Rusty

 

[JMachemer]

from Indiana to Pennsylvania on one rotor

i had an 84 RX-7 from 1993-1998. It was a great car to beat the crap out of - it did amazing donuts and left the perfect posi marks when doing a burnout. It was also a money pit. I think if i never would have modified it, i would still be running it today. I put a Racing Beat header and exuast on it and the engine blew a week later. The transmission also had to be rebuilt from my abuse. I also put a Mikuni "racing" carb on it. It was a quick little car. Anywho, I drove it from Gettysburg to Laramie Wy when i went to Wyoming Tech. It did great. Once I hit Nebraska I cruised at 90mph. I rejeted the carb once i got to Laramie. The car did great out there too. On the way home though i forgot to rejet the carb, and once i got my turnpike ticket in Indiana, I layed into it pretty good and popped one of the rotors. It did make it the rest of the way home - I was getting passed in the truck lane by the big trucks going up the hills though. It managed 65 on the flat. I do not know of another engine that would have done that.

 

[redram]

rotary motors are historicly crappy. They make excellent power when working, but they are not very durable.

From the 70's maybe but there are many rotaries with 150,000+ running around.



The muddy oil would have to come from a coolant leak as the combustion chamber and rotary assembly (eccentric shaft) does not mix like in a piston motor.

 

[redram]

i had an 84 RX-7 from 1993-1998. It was a great car to beat the crap out of - it did amazing donuts and left the perfect posi marks when doing a burnout. It was also a money pit. I think if i never would have modified it, i would still be running it today. I put a Racing Beat header and exuast on it and the engine blew a week later. The transmission also had to be rebuilt from my abuse. I also put a Mikuni "racing" carb on it. It was a quick little car. Anywho, I drove it from Gettysburg to Laramie Wy when i went to Wyoming Tech. It did great. Once I hit Nebraska I cruised at 90mph. I rejeted the carb once i got to Laramie. The car did great out there too. On the way home though i forgot to rejet the carb, and once i got my turnpike ticket in Indiana, I layed into it pretty good and popped one of the rotors. It did make it the rest of the way home - I was getting passed in the truck lane by the big trucks going up the hills though. It managed 65 on the flat. I do not know of another engine that would have done that.

If you broke a Mazda 5 speed, you must have been 'power shifting' it. These are very durable transmissions unless misteated or poor driving habits. Simple things like keeping your hand on the shift lever while cruising - causes preload on the synchros leading to premature wear.

I've raced RX3's in ITA, an 1980 RX7 in Solo II, a 1982 GSL in Showroom Stock A - that car had over 100,000 'race miles' over it's ten life as a race car. A 1986 RX7 Sport, own a 1985 RX7 GS and a 1994 Twin Turbo RX7 R2 along with a tube frame RX3 and I am building a tubeframe RX7 3rd Gen for SCCA GT3. It wasn't until I got into GT3 that I went away from the stock tranmissions for a dog ring setup.

Treat the transmissions right - and there are hard to destroy. Oo.

 

[TowPro]

Mazda likes to use "Different" type engines. not only do they use The Wankel and Otto Cycle engines, they also use the Miller cycle engines. Once they start selling the Mazda version of the excape Hybred they will also be using the Atkinson cycle. Not sure if they use the Diesel Cycle engine