More engine cluck after new injection pump.

[pwr2tow]

Had my truck in last month because the injection pump was leaking, the famous cold weather leak.

The mechanic reflashed my truck with updates at that time and ordered a new injection pump. The reflash helped with cold startups (rough idle and stumble) and idle and ran smoother under throttle.

A month went by before I could get back to have the injection pump replaced and every thing ran and sounded good before the injection pump replacement. Now after the injection pump replacement the truck sounds more like a 12 valve or the early 24 valve trucks. It has alot more of that cluck, cluck sound. It's not a tick like injector or loose lifter, just more pronounced or deeper cluck, cluck sound from the engine.

Anyone have any clue to why?
Is it something I should be concerned with?

When we picked up the truck even my wife, which is mechanical minded, looked at me like why is the truck so much louder than before.

Thanks,

 

[cerberusiam]

Mine reacted the same way when the IP was swapped due to leaking. I also noticed the truck ran better on the low end than it did with the old pump. There was a noiceable difference between the 2 pumps and how they performed.



I am pretty sure the 12V noise I have is due to the fact the IP is not timed to the engine correctly. Just need to spend some time and try retiming it to see what happens.

 

[raychem]

Mine reacted the same way when the IP was swapped due to leaking. I also noticed the truck ran better on the low end than it did with the old pump. There was a noiceable difference between the 2 pumps and how they performed.



I am pretty sure the 12V noise I have is due to the fact the IP is not timed to the engine correctly. Just need to spend some time and try retiming it to see what happens.

There is no timing the injection pumps on CR motors. Everything; timing included is controlled by the injector and the ECM.



Edit* As stated in the next posts, some people with noise issues from the injection pump will find the information on how to change injection pump phasing in the following posts.



Richard

 

[JHardwick]

Exactly, it's just a high pressure pump.

 

[Bob4x4]

No timimg is needed but phasing it may make the idle smoother. Set the engine to tdc then align the pump shaft towards any on of the pump chambers



Bob

 

[JHardwick]

How may chambers are there?

 

[pwr2tow]

No timimg is needed but phasing it may make the idle smoother. Set the engine to tdc then align the pump shaft towards any on of the pump chambers

Bob

Yes, more information please. I'am an old mechanic in a modern technical era. I need explaination and diagrams if possible.

Will leaving the pump the way it is cause any harm?

My truck seems like it might have a little less power now but MPG seems higher. I know that makes sence. MPG up means less fuel being burned or more efficiently. The noise doesn't bother me as long as it's not doing something harmful. MPG increase is a blessing at this point with fuel prices.

 

[Bob4x4]

How may chambers are there?

3 pumping chambers

 

[Bob4x4]

OPERATION

The fuel injection pump supplies high pressure to the fuel rail independent of engine speed. This high pressure is then accumulated in the fuel rail. High pressure fuel is constantly supplied to the injectors by the fuel rail. The Engine Control Module (ECM) controls the fueling and timing of the engine by actuating the injectors.



Fuel enters the system from the electric fuel transfer (lift) pump, which is located in the fuel tank. Fuel is forced through the fuel filter element and then enters the Fuel Pump/Gear Pump, which is attached to the rear of the fuel injection pump. The Fuel Pump/Gear Pump is a low-pressure pump and produce pressures ranging from 551. 5 kpa (80 psi) to 1241 kpa (180) psi. Fuel then enters the fuel injection pump. Low pressure fuel is then supplied to the FCA (Fuel Control Actuator).



The FCA is an electronically controlled solenoid valve. The ECM controls the amount of fuel that enters the high-pressure pumping chambers by opening and closing the FCA based on a demanded fuel pressure. The FPS (Fuel Pressure Sensor) on the fuel rail provides the actual fuel pressure. When the actuator is opened, the maximum amount of fuel is being supplied to the fuel injection pump. Any fuel that does not enter the injection pump is directed to the cascade overflow valve. The cascade overflow valve regulates how much excess fuel is used for lubrication of the pump and how much is returned to the tank through the drain manifold.



Fuel entering the injection pump is pressurized to between 300-1600 bar (4351-23206 psi) by three radial pumping chambers. The pressurized fuel is then supplied to the fuel rail.

 

[MLee]

Looks like they found away around the pre-injection process. And Better mileage. Welcome back to the diesel sound.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

It has alot more of that cluck, cluck sound. It's not a tick like injector or loose lifter, just more pronounced or deeper cluck, cluck sound from the engine.

You might check to see if you have any loose hens under your hood. Sure it isn't more of a cackle sound? Oh that's right that's what the Powerstroke says :-laf

Sorry couldn't resist

 

[cerberusiam]

There is no timing the injection pumps on CR motors. Everything; timing included is controlled by the injector and the ECM.



Richard

Not so, if the IP is not timed to the engine you can get more noise than normal.



Ideally, the compression stroke on the IP should be timed to the compression stroke on the engine. If the compression strokes are not in synch it creates slack in the gears that manifests as a rattle, clack, etc.



Quite often mistaken as timing rattle, it definitely makes a difference in the engine sound.

 

[raychem]

Not so, if the IP is not timed to the engine you can get more noise than normal.



Ideally, the compression stroke on the IP should be timed to the compression stroke on the engine. If the compression strokes are not in synch it creates slack in the gears that manifests as a rattle, clack, etc.



Quite often mistaken as timing rattle, it definitely makes a difference in the engine sound.

I do agree with the timing on the pump on the older engines. No where is it specified in the service manual that the cp3 pump must be installed @ TDC. If so that would also required that the cp3 be timed from the factory or from the Bosch service center. I will verify that the pumps are timed or not tomorrow but I do not think that they are. Also, on all dealer serviced trucks, no new pumps are used... only reman so variations between pumps could cause the difference. These CR systems are way different than the mechanical counterparts. I have installed over 30 pumps (modded pumps are a bit louder and can be heard over the engine) and have never heard of this so it is the first. Not saying that your right or wrong but, for your explination to hold true, that pump should have a hold down bolt to keep it from moving which it does not. Get back to this post tomorrow.



One other thing, The ecm must see 4k to 7k of rail pressure before starting depending on the year and ecm flash. So the rail must be pressurized before start.



Richard

 

[cerberusiam]

I do agree with the timing on the pump on the older engines. No where is it specified in the service manual that the cp3 pump must be installed @ TDC. If so that would also required that the cp3 be timed from the factory or from the Bosch service center. I will verify that the pumps are timed or not tomorrow but I do not think that they are. Also, on all dealer serviced trucks, no new pumps are used... only reman so variations between pumps could cause the difference. These CR systems are way different than the mechanical counterparts. I have installed over 30 pumps (modded pumps are a bit louder and can be heard over the engine) and have never heard of this so it is the first. Not saying that your right or wrong but, for your explination to hold true, that pump should have a hold down bolt to keep it from moving which it does not. Get back to this post tomorrow.

No hold down bolt, no factory requirements for timing on the CP-3. Just becuase the manual doesn't address it does not mean it can be ignored. You have worked on these things enough to realize that.



There is an issue if the pump is not timed close to engine and DC is aware of it. This has been an issue from the start of the CR series engines and has been discussed several times on every diesel board out there.



See the following thread, posts #4 and #13 for history and resolution.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com...66-injector-noise-vs-injector-pump-noise.html





Does not apply to every situation, but, if there is noise that doesn't sound right its a place to start and a relatively easy procedure.

 

[raychem]

No hold down bolt, no factory requirements for timing on the CP-3. Just becuase the manual doesn't address it does not mean it can be ignored. You have worked on these things enough to realize that.



There is an issue if the pump is not timed close to engine and DC is aware of it. This has been an issue from the start of the CR series engines and has been discussed several times on every diesel board out there.



See the following thread, posts #4 and #13 for history and resolution.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com...66-injector-noise-vs-injector-pump-noise.html





Does not apply to every situation, but, if there is noise that doesn't sound right its a place to start and a relatively easy procedure.

Did not know about that but I have not run into this problem personally. Normally I am always installing modded pumps and have only done a handful of stock pumps. I was a parts manager for a diesel injection shop for a while so I do know how many of these systems work. Helical cut gears would be a quieter choice for these apps for noise that is for sure.



As for the noise, once you start to mod these trucks, everything changes. How they sound, run, idle... . it never the same even with the same truck. Thanks for the lesson! Always learning something new.





Richard

 

[cerberusiam]

Did not know about that but I have not run into this problem personally. Normally I am always installing modded pumps and have only done a handful of stock pumps.

Yeah, if your doing mostly modded pumps its probably not something that comes up very often. You are dealing with people that expect a little noise, not abhor it. :-laf



I was quite surprised at the chorus on "no way or need to time the IP". I thought this was a little more common knowledge, but, guess if you don't run into it and never hear the difference it doesn't make an impression.





As I said, its a relatively easy thing to try for noise that can be tracked to the IP. I doubt it will harm anything but the long term effect may be more than anyone knows. Considering the price of a pump, anything to help it is probably a step forward.

 

[raychem]

Yeah, if your doing mostly modded pumps its probably not something that comes up very often. You are dealing with people that expect a little noise, not abhor it. :-laf



I was quite surprised at the chorus on "no way or need to time the IP". I thought this was a little more common knowledge, but, guess if you don't run into it and never hear the difference it doesn't make an impression.





As I said, its a relatively easy thing to try for noise that can be tracked to the IP. I doubt it will harm anything but the long term effect may be more than anyone knows. Considering the price of a pump, anything to help it is probably a step forward.

Yep, I had never heard of this and I am pretty tight with one of the dealers down hear so I am privy to much of the stuff behind the scene as far as DC is concerned, even with all the stuff with the 6. 7 which I never post about. Forums aree good and bad at the same time and the TDR has been an invaluable tool. But Like i said before, no where is it listed in the manuals, or by bosch, and there are no TSB's on the matter either. So I guess it is one of those issues that has been off the public lime light. But my statement still holds true, timing is not needed. It is a noise issue for some and the for the people who read this, I will edit the above post to include non-noise issues.

Thanks for the info.



OOH and befor I forget... we have been saying IP timing when BOB4X4 said it best; IP phasing!!! Thanks Bob



Richard

 

[Johnstra]

If the pump is making noise due to the timing being off a bit, it should be obvious listening with a stethascope on the pump wouldn't it? I've been chasing ticks and knocks for a while now but I don't hear any funny noises coming from the pump itself.

-john

 

[cerberusiam]

OOH and befor I forget... we have been saying IP timing when BOB4X4 said it best; IP phasing!!! Thanks Bob

Ok, IP phasing it is. That should keep it seperate from timing.

 

[cerberusiam]

If the pump is making noise due to the timing being off a bit, it should be obvious listening with a stethascope on the pump wouldn't it? I've been chasing ticks and knocks for a while now but I don't hear any funny noises coming from the pump itself.

-john

The noise is actually in the gear drive behind the front cover. Depending on rpm it could manifest in different places with the pump being one. The frequency will cause different pieces to buzz, clank, rattle, etc.



If you have and get rid of it you hear the difference.