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More Enviro Nazism.....Outrageous!!!

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Check out this link:

http://www.local6.com/health/4223221/detail.html



Stupid people. Just goes to show that in this country, any body CAN and DOES say anything they want, and expect it to be treated as gospel because it's in print.



I'd like do know how exactly they calculated the number of deaths as a DIRECT by product of DIESEL FUMES.....





GGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!11
 
I agree!! this seems to be a ridiculous claim. Even if this were all true, the clean air group needs to help with a solution and discuss its relation to the economy. She just likes to stir then pot and point fingers.
 
I think if someone added up all the people that die from smoking, second hand smoke, diesel smoke, fatty foods, tainted drinking water, and all the other "pet" killers, we'd end up with a number that exceeds the number of people that actually died during any given period! I have a new "pet killer"... birth! Everyone that is born WILL die. Guess we'll have to do away with birth.
 
wow, 20,000 deaths there claiming! i bet that they didnt look into the peoples lifestyles before they wrote that, didnt talk about the ones that sit at the bar all night smoking and chewing, that that might be a reason too. your probably more likely to get hit by lightning than die from smelling diesel fumes. yes they are probably dangerous, but you cant say diesel fumes killed them, what about daily gasses, viruses, and everyday toxins they run into?

oh well enogh griping for a bit :-{}



matt
 
Hmmm...

I doubt they researched the death certificates of the alleged diesel deaths. I would find it odd if a coroner could make the assertion that diesel based carcinogens were the cause of death, unless, of course, the deceased was run over by a diesel powered vehicle. :D



It is another typical extremist piece of propaganda spewed forth by an environmental agenda.
 
It's just more of the same liberal enviro-whackos at work - the SAME ones involved in trying to outlaw "gas-guzzlers" - their definition of any vehicle larger than a Yugo - and trying to put all pre-1970 cars into the crushers, including antiques and collector cars...



Then there are the SUV's they targeted to demonize as "evil" - even get a few on THIS board who buy into that garbage... :rolleyes:



We have to remember that old story, "they came to take away the collector cars, and *I* didn't care, because they don't interest me. Then they came to take away the SUV's, and *I* didn't care, because I don't have one. THEN they came for my Dodge Turbo Diesel - and no one else cared, or was left to help me fight them off... "



Be careful when you applaud the government activity to control or limit some niche of the vehicle industry - the NEXT one they target MIGHT be one YOU own or are interested in!
 
OK guys, take a deep breath (unless you're standing near a diesel exhaust pipe! ;) ) and count to ten. Calling people names ("enviro-nazi"? c'mon... . ) and griping about an "environmental agenda" (like, we don't have a "diesel agenda"?) accomplishes nothing except making us all look like wackos... and nobody cares what wackos think. Instead, here are some fairly rational arguments to think about, so that you can (for example) write your congressman or your state legislator and give him some useful ammo with which to defend your interests against things like this:



I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the science behind all of this is pretty good. Diesel particulates are harmful, and they do contribute to 'excess deaths'. Now, whether its 20,000 deaths per year as the Clean Air Task Force report claims -- or 2,000 per year, or 200,000 per year -- is open to rational debate, because this kind of risk analysis is notorious for having huge uncertainties. But if you just say "They're wrong!" without offering a rational alternative argument, then you're speaking from ignorance, and nobody cares.



The old argument "yeah, well, french-fries kill people, too!" is worse than useless. Nobody drives down the street stuffing french-fries up old ladies' noses... at least not on the planet the rest of us live on. I'm sure you get my point.



Here, I think, are some arguments in opposition to the Clean Air Task Force report that do hold some water:



1. The idea of requiring mandatory retrofits to millions of private vehicles is contrary to the way we do things in this country. There are lots of old 'legacy' vehicles on the road today without air-bags, seat belts, third brakelights, ABS, catalytic converters, etc. , and surely people die every year because of that. But we as a society have judged that ordering mandatory retrofits everytime somebody gets a wild hair is undersirable. Instead, if the new technology is really important, we require it on new vehicles, and we let the old vehicles die off, as they surely will. The same logic must apply here, too.



2. In those few cases where it is judged desirable to encourage the adoption of a retrofit technology, the way to go is to make it worth the owner's while to choose to do it. So if you want to encourage me to spend $1000 to retrofit a filter on my Dodge, then offer me a rebate on my fuel taxes or registration fees that would equal $1000 over the life of the vehicle (for instance); I might just think about that.



3. The Clean Air Task Force analysis is half-baked because it only looks at half the story. It estimates the economic cost of excess deaths due to diesel particulates, but it does not estimate the economic cost of the mandatory retrofits of millions of vehicles that it calls for. How many trucking firms, independent owner/operators, contractors, railroads, etc. would be tipped over the edge into bankruptcy by the cost of mandatory retrofits? Its a known fact that unemployment causes 'excess deaths', too, due to stress, domestic violence, alcoholism, etc. The Clean Air Task Force's analysis doesn't stop to consider whether the health and economic benefits of mandatory retrofits would exceed the health and economic costs.
 
Wbusa, since you're a health scientist, what is your opinion about gasoline PM? Why hasn't there been as much scrutiny of gas PM as there is of diesel PM?



A DOE study recently presented at a DEER Conference suggests that gasoline PM is "enriched" in PAHs compared to diesel PM. Shouldn't that be cause for alarm? Why isn't there a methodology for showing how many people get cancer from gasoline PM?
 
write your congressman and state legislature :--) ,, Hello reality check they could care less, trust me i work for the state i live in and you might as well send them a brick as to send them a letter about anything. Once there in there like concrete there only going to express their views and opinions on what they want done, as for pple contacting them these Morons should already know exactly whats going on in there state and their country or was that not the reason they were elected..... I mean isn't that why they get the big bucks to set in chairs all day runaround drinking having luncheon meetings , as most of us here know its *you scratch my back and i will scratch yours* thats how it works, the truth does hurt a little bit you think.
 
wxman said:
Wbusa, since you're a health scientist, what is your opinion about gasoline PM? Why hasn't there been as much scrutiny of gas PM as there is of diesel PM?



A DOE study recently presented at a DEER Conference suggests that gasoline PM is "enriched" in PAHs compared to diesel PM. Shouldn't that be cause for alarm? Why isn't there a methodology for showing how many people get cancer from gasoline PM?

Yeah, wxman, I saw your post with links to this info... very interesting, and I was unaware of it. Makes sense to me... any sub-micron carbon particles produced by hydrocarbon combustion are going to be bad news, health-wise. Why hasn't there been as much scrutiny? My guess would be plain-old human foolishness... black smoke rolling out of a semi is obvious to everyone, whereas the thinner carbon particle emissions from cars are not, so its easy for gasser drivers to feel holier-than-thou. Problem is, there are thousands of times more gasser engines out there than diesels, so the gasser problem may be much worse even though its less obvious. But you know how it is: out of sight, out of mind. This is why I tend to get a little peeved by kids laying down clouds of black smoke with their Dodges... we all get hung with their rope.



Why isn't there a methodology for showing how many people get cancer from gasoline PM? There is... the same methodology Clean Air employed for this diesel report. The real question is, why didn't they bother to employ it? My guess would be "only fight the battles you can win". 90+ % of voters drive gassers, so a movement to require retrofits on all gassers would be an absolute non-starter... they'd get laughed outta the room. By the same token, since most people don't drive diesels - and in fact think diesels are nasty - a movement to require diesel retrofits just might work. Divide and conquer. Remember, I'm a smoker... and it wasn't until the percentage of adult smokers dropped below 50% in this country that they started kicking us out in the cold.



Then too, I hate to admit it but Clean Air does make one good point: the older generation of diesels... those built before there were any particulate emission standards... will be on the road for decades to come. At 150K on the clock my CTD is just gettin' warmed up, whereas the average gasser would be headed for the junk yard, or for South America. So I guess their argument would be that we can afford to wait for the old high-particle-emitting gassers to die, but the old diesels are going to be around for so long that another approach is required. I disagree, but I must grudgingly admit to the logic of that distinction.
 
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WyattEarp said:
write your congressman and state legislature, Hello reality check they could care less

Wyatt, I share your cynicism about politicians' motivations... but that's precisely why I believe in letting my representatives know what I think. Mostly, they just want to keep their jobs; so if their letters are running 2-to-1 against diesel retrofits, they'll be against it, too. Contrary-wise, if they don't hear a peep about it from their constituents they'll figure nobody much cares, and then there's no telling what they'll do.



The TDR membership constitutes a nice-sized interest group... big enough to really help keep our representatives on their toes if more of us would just take the opportunity to e-mail our reps every once in a while. They prolly don't care what you think, but they sure-nuff care how you vote!
 
Concern for the opinions of vehicle owners sure didn't rate very high with the decision to reformulate gasoline a couple of decades back - when it was pointed out that that change WOULD damage most gasoline engines in operation at that time, the EPA and similar outfits just shrugged their shoulders and said "T. S", we know it will cause damage and added expense to vehicle owners, and we simply don't CARE!



Same with reformulated diesel fuel more recently - the "good will" of truck owners and the predicted repair/replacement costs didn't even figure into the equation - as long as the EPA and Sierra club got THEIR way...



Don't misunderstand, we all DO benefit from cleaner air - and REASONABLE and progressive efforts over reasonable periods of time are fine - but I, for one, strongly resist strong-arm and arbitrary overnight "fixes" that are mandated REGARDLESS of the peripheral damage it creates, and without even the SLIGHTEST attempt to do so with the approval of the folks who end up being forced into PAYING for those mandates.



SO, *WE*, as diesel engine owners and operators, should tip-toe around with our trucks lest we offend someone? How about the EPA and similar outfits do a bit of tip-toeing of ther OWN, before they propose to formulate new legislation that directly affects MY wallet? :rolleyes:
 
:rolleyes:



Wbusa,

I understand your points totally. I just get sick of hearing about all the things that are going to kill me. Bees will kill me. One sting and I'm history without my epi. Perhaps someone should move to irradicate bees... or genetically engineer them with out stingers and venom. Think of how many lives could be saved by eliminating allergic reactions. Irrational? Of course. Death is a part of life. To me, all of this reflects something deeper in the minds of society. I'm just not sure what it is.



Or, as I said earlier maybe I'm nuts... Maybe the diesel fumes have got me... Maybe both. :-laf
 
WBusa said:
The old argument "yeah, well, french-fries kill people, too!" is worse than useless. Nobody drives down the street stuffing french-fries up old ladies' noses... at least not on the planet the rest of us live on. I'm sure you get my point.

.



I could make an argument that there are only so many resources to go around and too much is spent on french fry related illnesses so there is not enough left to take care of old ladies... In fact 20,000 old ladies die from this each day!
 
What a stupid article. It cites no sources, doesn't detail findings, doesn't explain how they reached their conclusions, and it's nothing but ESTIMATES. What a pile of propaganda bunk.



Vaughn
 
We need to call them or write and inform them to stay more than 3 feet from diesel or gas tail pipes. !!

And that we must have facts, not opinions.
 
Interestingly enough, they showed that diesel fumes had an effect on rats BUT DID NOT EFFECT HAMSTERS! I'd hardly call that conclusive proof that diesel fumes cause cancer in humans... Also, the people who they say were effected by diesel fumes were in the mining industry or statisticly more likely to be smokers.
 
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