More questions about 3/4 tons pulling fifth wheel

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9' camper in shortbed truck

Need Help Please!

I'm looking into pulling a fifth wheel with my 01' 2500. I've weighed the truck (6950lbs as it will be pulling) and determined the max pin weight without exceeding GVWR is 1850.

If I have a load of bricks or a slide in that weights 1850lbs the truck brakes have to do all the work to stop the load. If I'm pulling a fifth wheel (with trailer brakes) the truck brakes do not have to do all the work to stop the load. How is it that they apply equally to GVWR? The owners manual and the towing guide aren't exactly clear on this. I'd also like to know what limits the 2500 to a GVWR of 8800, how did the engineers arrive at this number?
 
Because GVWR isn't just a braking issue. Keep in mind that only the pin weight portion of the trailer counts toward GVWR. The whole weight of the trailer counts toward GCWR. Also I would imagine that the trailer brakes are not capable of performing the braking of the trailer's entire weight on thier own. What percentage of the trailer braking effort required is transferred to the truck? Some of it for sure. As far as how the engineers arrived at the 8800lb number, who knows. What limits the 2500 to 8800 lbs GVWR? Well, legally the little sticker on the door;) From a practical standpoint? mostly the extra two wheels.

Hopefully I haven't confused the issue further!

Dave
 
Thanks for the input. Didn't confuse me futher, not sure if I put in enough info to get the right answer. I'm not debating the 3/4 ton versus 1 ton dually issue. The one ton wins hands down! However, if you look at the weight of my truck 6950 with the allowable 20,000lbs GCWR I can pull a trailer that weighs 13050lbs. (Not saying I feel safe doing so) but the truck can do it with 650lbs to spare on GTW. As long as no more than 1850lbs. of that trailer weight is pin weight. Again not to exceed the GVWR of 8800lbs. That pin weight of 1850 doesn't come close to exceeding the GAWR or the tire rating on my truck (the tires being the limit at 2500). Which leads me to belive that braking is the issue. I'm not sure what proportion of energy is absorbed by the trailer brakes, properly adjusted I would think most of it. It seems to me if I have a trailer that weighs 11,000lbs. with a hitch weight of 2100lbs I'm safer than a 13,050lbs trailer with a hitch weight of 1850. I understand exceeding axle and tire ratings, I'm not trying to participate in natural selection. What I don't understand is the conservative GVWR of 8800lbs which doesn't seem to align very well with the other ratings.
 
Page 161 of my Owner's Manual states:

NOTE: When towing a trailer maximum GCWR must not be exceeded. When loading the tow vehicle and the trailer, weight must be distributed between the tow vehicle and the trailer so that neither the GVWR, nor the trailer weight rating, not the trailer tongue weight rating of the tow vehicle are exceeded.

It seems clear to me that the GVWR is in play as far as tongue/pin weights are concerned. If one is to conform to both GVWR and GCWR ratings:



GCWR - laden truck curb weight = maximum loaded total weight of 5th wheel trailer



GVWR - laden truck curb weight = maximum pin weight of loaded 5th wheel trailer



We tow a 13,500 36' 5th wheel that puts us on the road at 21,180 lbs GCW (21,500 lbs GCWR) and 10,380 lbs GVW (10,500 lbs GVWR).



Rusty
 
I didn't write GVWR doesn't come into play. I simply wrote the GVWR of 8800lbs doesn't seem to align with the other ratings. In a 3/4 ton you can be at your GVWR and never come close to the GTW, GCWR, GAWR, or tire ratings. I'm simply trying to get a better understanding of what this weight rating is based on.

I will be going down the road at or just below GVWR (after fuel burnoff) I'd just like to know what I'm wearing out or possibly damaging at this weight.
 
Three comments;



- 1) I think you are looking for logic where there is none. There is no weak link that dictates the 8800 GVWR. Looking at the component weight ratings, the GVWR should be based on the weakest link and both the tires and rear axle can handle more, ergo the rating isn't necessarily based on anything logical.



- 2) What kind of tires do you run that have a maximum weight capacity of 2500 lbs? My 265 75R16 Hankook RF04's are rated at 3415 lbs each.



- 3) I don't believe the rating is due to braking, but at one of my board meetings, we had a transportation accident expert give us a presentation and we were given some interesting statistical information regarding 18 wheelers and braking. One number that stuck in mind was that 70% of the braking force required was generated by the front axle of the tractor. Not 70% of the GCVW braking force was on the tractor but the front axle of the tractor due to weight transfer. All those wheels and the braking is done mostly to the front two. So, I don't think that the trailer brakes deal with "most of it". I just bring this one up as a point of interest.



Personally, I believe that you are not hurting (or prematurely wearing) anything on your truck running at or just below GVWR. I also believe that the 8800 lb rating is conservative given that no consideration is given to camper packages, overloads, sway bars, etc. Keep in mind that the major difference between your 2500 and a similar 3500 is the two extra wheels, and you are nowhere near your max tire load at max GVWR. In fact, if you load your truck up to the maximum rating, you will still have more weight on your front tires than your rear ones! What does that tell you?



My 2 cents:)



Dave
 
Another indication of how conservative the 8800 lb rating is is to look at the ratings for a 2WD 2500 with a gasser. I think the payload capacity is around 3000 lbs, and almost all of it goes on the rear axle. The gasser doesn't even have as strong of an axle as the CTD (with the Dana 80). The 8800 lb rating has everything to do with the class of the truck, and not it's real capacity.
 
SFranzer -

This is the best line of questioning I’ve seen yet on this issue. For the main reason is that the 1 ton vs. ¾ ton argument is left out … which is good. No question on that argument IMO.



My post is going to be long, but I hope my points are all good, and should be worth reading.



1. Dpelletier is correct, IMO, that the GVWR isn’t so much based on braking. As an example (not to start the 3500 vs. 2500 debate though), the GVWR of the 3500 is quite a bit higher than the 2500. But is the 3500’s brakes different? I think they’re basically the same. I do think the 2 extra tires will give you a bit of an advantage for braking, but not as much as the difference in the GVWR between the 2500 and 3500 indicates.



2. You stated,
It seems to me if I have a trailer that weighs 11,000lbs. with a hitch weight of 2100lbs I'm safer than a 13,050lbs trailer with a hitch weight of 1850.

Although that’s arguable by some, I totally agree with you. BECAUSE of the conservatively low GVWR of the ¾ ton. And I think its conservatively low due to all the discussions that have be made on this site and various other sites for the reasoning behind the 8,800 lbs.



I’ve actually seen various legislative (if that’s the right term) rules, laws, or regulations about vehicles that require special fees or licensing, and insurance if the vehicles’ GVWR is over 8,800 lb. I’ve seen this from either this site or one of the others.



Here’s an example. My brother in law’s family electrical business (which is fairly large) has never bought a one ton. Every truck is a ¾ ton Ram. They operate these trucks commercially. And I doubt there’s ever a day when the trucks would weigh in under 8,800 lbs. Most are WAY over it, all the time. They never wear them out. They do go through brakes. Is there a reason they don’t buy 1 tons? I’d have to say yes, but I don’t know for sure, I don’t know the financial detail of their business (nor should I). They’re in the business to make money and spend nothing extra if they don’t have to. To me that makes the 8,800 lb. more conservative. I’m betting they’d wind up paying some extra fees & insurance or run into additional licensing for a 1 ton to operate commercially. Lord knows they need them GVWR-wise. I don’t blame them one bit. Their ¾ ton trucks get the jobs done just fine. As an added note, they do have some really large bucket trucks and such. I’m not sure about those trucks size/ratings. They’re much larger than 1 tons, maybe they’re MDTs.



3.
I will be going down the road at or just below GVWR (after fuel burnoff) I'd just like to know what I'm wearing out or possibly damaging at this weight.

IMHO, you won’t be wearing or damaging anything. At least not any more wear and damage than towing will normally incur. For instance, you’ll wear more tire out, put more load on the axles than empty, and will wear those proportionally more than empty. But as for being destructive? Naaaaah! I do tow over my GVWR. I’m not condoning it, and I would buy a 1 ton if I had it to do over again. I’ve towed over the GVWR for probably about 20,000 miles or more and my truck feels tight and new. I could afford a 1 ton, but why should I? My truck is a trouble-free, paid for cream puff. The only thing I’m guilty of is being over the GVWR from time to time by 200 lbs. normally, sometimes as much as 500 lbs. It tows like a dream while doing so also.



4. From Dpelletier –
- 1) I think you are looking for logic where there is none. There is no weak link that dictates the 8800 GVWR. Looking at the component weight ratings, the GVWR should be based on the weakest link and both the tires and rear axle can handle more, ergo the rating isn't necessarily based on anything logical.
I agree with him whole heartedly. There is no mathematical logic. I think the logic is other – I believe it is more political / sales driven. Although I’m not sure all the 8,800 lb. rules and regulations continue to exist but if they did, and if Dodge suddenly upped the ¾ ton truck rating to 9,600 lbs (for example), a lot of commercial fleet buyers may have to go buy a Ford ¾ ton that has the 8,800 lb. GVWR for a licensing and insurance cost savings.



5. Check your tire ratings like Dpelletier suggests.



6. Of all the people I’ve ever engaged in this topic, I agree with Dpelletier more than anyone. He and I seem to see pretty much eye to eye.



- JyRO
 
JyRO,

Thank you for the kind words.



If Ken agrees with us (to some degree at least) then we can't be totally wrong! Ken always seems to have a balanced view on things. A better example of the "one size fits all" rating is the fact that Ken's six speed has a GAWR rating of over 7,000 lbs (Ken?), whereas my '01 had a rating of 6084 lbs on the Dana 70 (auto). Both have the same 8800 lb GVWR rating. I rest my case.



I think that in order for me to have faith in the factory #'s, the GVWR should be different on all vehicles and should be calculated on the exact options and equipment ordered. Obviously this isn't about to happen for a variety of reasons, but it would be the correct way to do it IMHO.



I also want to clarify that I don't disagree with anything that Rusty has said, and I don't advocate running way over GVWR. Rusty has a complete handle on how to calculate the #'s and has helped lots of people get their "head around" the issue. Ken's website also has some great information for help people out. I am not debating the 1 Ton vs. 3/4 Ton or the SRW vs. DRW issues. I do believe that the 8800 lb number is conservative, but the question is how conservative? I don't know.



JyRO, you did a better job on the GVWR component wear issue, and I agree. Obviously stuff is going to wear faster loaded than empty, but I stand by my comment that I don't think running at max GVWR is going to hurt anything or cause premature wear.



I always believe in having more truck than you need. I watched my father make more than a few mistakes in this regard. As someone who worked in the automotive industry, and was a "car nut", my dad frequently asked for my opinion before buying something. One time he dragged me out to the GM dealership (yeah, I know!), and wanted my opinion on two trucks he was looking at. One was a 8600 GVWR 3/4 ton regular cab LWB, 6. 5 TD 4x4 and the other was a 1/2 ton extended cab short box 4x4 with a 5. 7 litre auto and all the "glee" in the world. My dad was on a budget and was like a crow with shiney stuff!. Both trucks were the same price. He was going to buy a travel trailer and so naturally, I told him to buy the 3/4 ton and not to even look at the 1/2 ton. All the chrome got the best of him and he bought the 1/2 ton LOL. After six trips with his 26' travel trailer, he returned to the dealership and traded the 1/2 ton for the 3/4 ton diesel.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to buy a 3500 dually just to tool around town and I think my 2500, although it was over GVWR handled my camper fine. My new truck is probably a tad "overkill" for my 9. 5' camper. Just the way I like it!;)



Sorry for the long post. This has been an interesting discussion.

Cheers

Dave
 
Good info from everyone, thank you! The newer 3/4 tons do have a higher rating. I don't plan on busting any ratings, but if I do I wanted a better understanding of what it is I'm actually doing.

As for tire rating? I have the Michelin LT245/75R16. They are rated at 3042lbs. 2500 was the allowable weight left over after subtracting truck weight, its real conservative. I haven't weighed the axles separately, so I thought I'd stick with a lower number until I did. However, this number is still over my 1850lbs allowable pin weight.

Braking? Dave I'm sure your comments on braking are more correct than my guesses. I can see in a panic stop situation where a higher percentage of the GCVW would be the burdon of the tow vehichles. But for nomal stopping wouldn't you want the trailer brakes trying to slow the truck down?
 
SFranzer,



Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post regarding tire ratings and I see what you mean now with the 2500 lbs. I would recommend (as you've indicated) weighing both axles loaded when you get to that point to be able to compare GAWR vs. actual conditions.



As far as trailer braking goes, I think you are correct when you say that you want the trailer brakes to slow the truck down during normal breaking. I'm sure someone who has a large 5er could comment with more authority, but I know when I bought my Wells Cargo, the owner took some time to adjust my brake controller to do just that. The presentation I referred to earlier was definitely talking about panic stops and accidents and although i think you have a valid point, ie. during a "regular" stop you can effectively brake most of the trailer weight with just the trailer brakes, it is the panic stops you want to think about when setting up your rig.



Picture a '77 Cadilac Sedan de Ville cruising down the road at 50 mph and then slamming on the brakes. What happens? The front end dives and the rear end rises. Why? because the majority of the weight transferred to the front axle and unloaded the rear suspension. The same thing happens to a trailer and tow vehicle.



As always, this is only my opinion and according to my wife, I am frequently wrong!:D

Dave
 
braking & larger 5'ers...

... but I stand by my comment that I don't think running at max GVWR is going to hurt anything or cause premature wear.



Dave, I agree with that too. If I made it sound like I didn't agree with that, its just my poor communication skills. We're just alike man, my dad does some funny things about vehicle purchases too.



SFranzer - Oh, I understand your tire rating (2,500#) now too. ;)



As an added note about panic stops. One time I was toodling down the interstate between 65 & 70 pulling my 9,500 lb. 5'er. I had forgot to plug my trailer connector back to the truck (I've done this twice :eek: ) I was coming south off Jellico mountain (I-75 at KY. TN. state line area). Near the bottom, I came around a bend and ALL TRAFFIC WAS STOPPED (for a tree down over the emergency lane and slow lane)! I went FULL brake pedal, and the truck stopped admirrably, even though I didn't know I didn't have it connected.



1st let me say that the reason I forgot (that time) was that I stopped overnight at a little truck stop in KY. right off the interstate. Overnight I unplugged the connector as to take no chances that the camper will drain the truck batteries. I forgot to plug it in the next morning, but only had to use the brakes once before getting on the interstate. Once on the interstate my goal is to not use the brakes until I reach the exit ramp of my choice. I never really accomplish that, but I can manage to barely barely even need to touch the brakes.



But back to the panic stop. I didn't realize the camper was unhooked because in panic stop, I expected the truck to do the vast majority of the braking. Even my wife commented just after the stop that the truck stopped quickly. I know, I know, I'm a dummy to not have plugged in, and to not have known it. But the point is, even in a panic stop with 9,500 lbs. of 5'er, my 3/4 ton did ALL the stopping, and did it well, and WAS over the GVWR.



As far as normal braking. I set my controller up where my trailer brakes just a bit stronger than the truck, so I can feel the effects for assurance. I bet when I left the truck stop that morning, I made some adjustments to my controller on that one stop out of the truck stop to get more feel/brake action. I shoulda known or realized I forgot to plug up, but I'm a dummy I guess. :eek:



- JyRO
 
JyRO



We avoid a problem like you discoverd by going thru our standard departure check off sheets which we follow even if we do not un hook for the night. One of the checks is to plug in the trailer and another requires my wife to stand behind the 5er and indicate that the turnsignals and brake lights work. Either would have found your problem.



Once the turnsignal/brake light check found that my truck turn signal switch had packed it in. Without that check I would have been back on the road with not turn signals or brake lights.



We have arrival and depatrure lists for both the truck and 5er.
 
8800 pounds gvwr for a 2500?

With my camper on the truck and water and other supplies loaded I am near or at 8800 pounds on my 2500. This is the gvwr for the truck yet the final set of springs (overload) that came from the factory are not making contact. This is at supposedly max gvwr. The truck feels like it can handle lots more weight but you are setting yourself up for potential trouble if something happens since you knowingly overload the truck. Many, if not most, trucks with full size campers are at or slightly over gvwr. I don't think the 8800 pounds is determined by braking issues or by how much the truck can carry with the weakest link component, but rather by a 'classification' of truck that is a calculation done by the manufacturer. Maybe it has to do with smog stuff or warranty issues, I don't know.
 
I have read thru all the post, and I found it to be some very good reading. I have a 3500, and the reason we bought the dually was for it stable towing platform. You are right in that there is little difference between the two. The axle is a D80, and the brakes are larger. This is important but nothing to different. My concern has always been about safety and stability, I myself would not want to tow a large heavy gooseneck or fifth wheel without a DRW. I have driven them both, and for a long time I probably tow way to much trailer with too little truck. To me it not a question of can it tow the load, but can it tow the load safely? We live on I-75 and have seen way to many people injured or killed by truck/trailer accidents. Out of all that we have seen and or read about, they all involved two small of a truck for the load, and they were all SRW. The common thread on all of these wrecks seem to be SRW. And trust me, this section of interstate is the deadliest section in the US. With the most trailer accidents for given stretch of road, and with most accidents happening from 11. 00AN to 2. 00 PM. I know this will not change anyones mind, and you will do as you please, but I still hope it might help someone. I love 2500's and don't think I am bashing them, I just think where is some limit with regards to trailer size and weight, that should be taken into account. I am not any kind of an expert, nor do I pretend to be one, I just know what feels comfortable to me. Before we got our last trailer, we new that it we were going to go any larger, it would require a larger truck. I just think sometimes people get to caught-up in the numbers, size,weight,if big is good then bigger is better, and don't think about what there asking there truck to do.





#ad






This is our trailer, I have know doubt that a 2500 or 3500 SRW Dodge could pull it, none. Just I would not feel comfortable being the one doing it. I have enjoyed the comments in this post and wish all of you good luck.
 
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SFranzer you have discovered the same thing that I figured out AFTER bying the trailer. In my case, the trucks payload capacity (GVWR - Empty Weight) is only 1,300 pounds!! I think the six cylinder 1/2 ton 2WD truck has a higher payload rating.



If you are shopping for fivers - you are going to have a very hard time finding one with pin weight less than 1,800 pounds unless it is under 25' with no slides.



Good Luck :(

:mad:
 
Okay with GCVW, GAWR, and GVW all having their place and all I wonder about the fact I can register my truck for 23k GVW and then register my trailer as a token trailer Ie no weight taxes paid on trailer, all taxes paid on turck. Then I would just deal with GAWR and GCVW like I do on a semi truck? no worry that truck or trailer is over listed GVW as long as GCVW is not exceeded?
 
Originally posted by Eric_77

Okay with GCVW, GAWR, and GVW all having their place and all I wonder about the fact I can register my truck for 23k GVW...

The fact that you can register an 8800 lb GVWR truck for 23000 lbs GVW makes it obvious that the Texas vehicle registration process is concerned with (1. ) revenue generation and (2. ) roadbed and bridge weight limit protection, not vehicular safety. Although damages related to overweight issues have tended to wind up in civil courts, more states are now stepping to the plate and refusing to register vehicles for more than the manufacturer's ratings. If Texas ever does that, the hot shot business will really take a hit.



Rusty
 
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