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My Experience With ATS in Denver

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My 1995, 2500, 2-WD had 107,000 miles on the odom when I pulled into the ATS shop in Denver last Thursday. It was time for a re-build, and I wanted ATS to do it. My truck is making about 230 h. p. and a little over 600 Ft. Lbs. of torque. I've had to take it easy for the last 10,000 miles or so as my lockup-clutch was slipping when I'd give it 3/4 throttle. For the record I paid for this re-build myself.



I don't think I was prepared for what I found at ATS. They are a family owned and run business. Clint and his wife Rene run the day to day operations, along with Don Ramer and Clint's father-in-law Fred, who is a retired fluid-power engineer from Gates Rubber. They are good people. They're thoughful, hard-working people who keep their word. Their employees seem dedicated, thorough and smart. No bad attitudes! They have a modern 8-Bay shop with another 2 big areas, one for trans dis-assembly and TC building, and another 2nd floor "clean" operation for trans building. They also have their own machine shop, more on that later. Don was a Cat Diesel Mechanic for over 15 years and is an ASE certified Master Auto Tech. Clint was a trans re-builder for AAMCO many years ago, before he and Don started ATS. They know their stuff with it comes to diesels and automatics.



They've been building transmissions and T'C's for a long time, and got their feet wet with Dodge/Cummins back about 1992. A lot of guys around Denver haul horses or hay or steel pipe or back-hoes back and forth across the Rockies with the mighty Dodge/Cummins, and by the early 1990's it was becoming apparent that the Dodge Automatics needed some help. Guys started increasing h. p. & torque, and that started a whole new round of trans failures. By the mid 1990's Don and Clint had both fallen in love with the D/C's and each bought one. All through the 1990's ATS was the largest builder of Torque Converters in Colorado and the surrounding area. They also built, and still build, racing Torque Converters, and racing automatics for high-horsepower drag-racing applications Well, human nature being what it is, Don and Clint just had to have the meanest, toughest trucks around and so they started bombing their own trucks. This of course led to their own trans failures. Don Ramer estimates he blew out 20 automatics during the 1990's while owning 3 Dodge/Cummins. Clint says he blew out 25 automatics. (Clint also owns a Ford Powerstroke) Each time they blew one they would pull it, take it apart and strengthen what-ever broke. This led to a lot of experimenting, and to a lot of correcting what the factory ignored.



On the wall there at ATS are a couple of Mustang Dyno reports from March Dyno Days of this year. At that time Don was putting out 597. 2 H. P. with 1355 Ft. Lbs. of torque. In Lockup. This was BEFORE he installed Compound Turbos! He estimates he is now putting around 700 H. P. to the ground. He gave me a ride in that truck (I think it is a 2001) and I tell ya, it goes! This power is all going through an ATS automatic with the Triple Lok. He is running a non-cyroed input shaft, although if you go to them for a re-build you WILL get a cyroed forward clutch and input shaft.
 
I didn't watch them drop the trans from my truck, as I was getting a motel room. That is the only part I missed. But Don & Clint gave me full run of their shop and let me accompany my transmission through the entire dissassembly and re-building and re-installation process. I was there 1 & 1/2 days, and I took notes!

Also, I am not a transmission expert, and Don & Clint will not see any portion of this post before I post it. So if I miss some bit of automatic trans fact or theory here, I trust they or someone will chime in and correct me.



An ATS employee named Rod pulled the old Torque Converter & cut my old TC open on a turret lathe. He opened it up and we inspected the clutch & cover. Actually they weren't too bad. You could tell there had been a lot of slipping because there were burned & distorted areas on the inner, machined face of the stamped steel TC cover, and marks on the clutch surface, but at least there was some clutch material left! I saw several used Dodge/Cummins TC clutches there at ATS on which the lining had melted! Literally!



I think there is an inherent problem with the stock stamped steel TC covers, in that they can warp. Don Ramer said some shops will weld a circular piece of steel to try to stabilize the cover, but that only creates more distortion from the welding process. So those shops will then machine the TC cover facing on a lathe, but that thins the cover, in exactly the area where it needs to be thick to be strong. The result will be it will distort slightly, and that distortion causes incomplete contact with the clutch, and that causes premature slipping. ATS's remedy was to throw away the stock cover and CNC a billet TC cover. More on than later.



My old trans was hoisted upstairs and dissassembled by Jeff Weaver, ATS's ace rebuilder. Let me put it this way: If I had some terrible brain disease, and Jeff Weaver was a Doctor, he's THE GUY I'd want to operate on my noggin! I don't know where ATS gets its employees, but Jeff struck me as awfully thoughtful, smart & dedicated--as were all of the employees. There was no "attitude". I was really impressed. Anyway, Jeff took my trans apart and overall everything wasn't too bad. The clutches and steels looked worn, but more than one employee walked by, looked over my shoulder as my old trans came apart, and remarked, "Oh... you must change your fluid regularly!" I did, I changed it every 10-12 thousand miles. If you do, your trans WILL last longer. They also discourage the use of "extended drain intervals" and synthetics.

Jeff stuck just about every trans part into a big automatic parts washer which cleaned everything in hot, water-based solvent, and let it all cook for an hour. Then we opened the machine and removed pristine, clean transmission parts. Boy, those aluminum cases looked NEW! I wanted to fondle them but I restrained myself!
 
We moved all the pieces to Jeff's "office" and piece by piece, Jeff built my transmission. He has been rebuilding transmissions for 25 years. ATS's other rebuilder, whose name I didn't write down, has been at it for 29 years. These 2 guys are real pros. Every time I had a question one of them answered it.



ATS uses many parts which they have engineered to be stronger than factory parts. These they machine in their own machine shop. I wrote down a bunch but I might have missed a few parts they make themselves. This is what I wrote down:



Converter Hub. This is the piece which sticks out of the back of the torque converter and drives the oil pump. ATS makes their own forged converter hub, machined to closer tolerances than factory specs.



Front band strut. This is a piece of steel about 1" wide and 1/8" thick which transfers force to tighten the front band. ATS CNC's their own band strut 1" wide and 1/4 inch thick, with beveled ends to fit the band end. Don said the factory ones flex under extreme h. p. & useage. New one doesn't flex.



Overdrive Sun Gear Thrust plate. Mine was scarred after 100,000+. ATS installs their own hardened billet Thrust plate, factory one is not hardened.



3rd-Reverse clutches--ATS installs one additional clutch & steel over factory specs. When you distribute clutch wear over more clutches, the duty cycle goes up!



Front input shaft and forward clutch are cyrogenically hardened, although Don is currently NOT running a cyroed shaft in his truck. He plans on doing that soon, but says with the Triple-lock TC, there are not the sudden jerking torque spikes which break input shafts. More on this later.
 
Sounds like you like the company, and their work, THAT is what is important.



Andrew-just here waiting for teh fireworks to start!;) :D
 
The Torque Converter!!! This is where ATS really shines. The only stock factory parts ATS uses in the TC are the turbine and the impeller. Everything else they manufacture or machine.



Their front cover is CNC'd from billet steel to tolerances of 1/2 a thousandth. This massive chunk of steel creates REAL STABILITY. The ATS billet cover is NOT going to deflect or distort or warp. The factory dampener is welded in, and also riveted on, and the rivets are tack-welded for added stability.



OK, are you ready... THEY USE MILLED STATORS!!!!!! OH MY GOSH... MILLED STATORS!!! OMG!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Yup! Now then. Now that we have the emotion out of the way... lets discuss this. Milled stators have a bad reputation because of BAD MACHINING! Bad Machining by guys who didn't know what they were doing! In the past shops would get an idea of what they wanted and then push a stock stator off on some hapless machine shop owner and try to explain what they wanted... the result would end up looking butchered. The guys at ATS don't like butchered parts. ATS has a few butchered stators on their shelf there, so you can see just how inept some shops/builders have been. Often these butchered stator blades would be seriously weakened at the shoulders, as the milling was done on less-than state-of-the-art milling machinery.



ATS takes a different approach. They take a stock stator, in which the cross section of each blade looks somewhat like big elongated tear drop, and their Tool & Die Guy goes at it with their own 4-axis CNC machine. A 4-axis CNC probably costs $130,000+ and with it you can mill compound double-curved surfaces. Think of a spoon. The result is pure fuctional beauty. The front and back of each stator blade is cut to a convex or concave curving spoon shape. This really works. My truck IS FASTER & QUICKER in non-lockup now, because of their design. This is the stator Dodge should have installed! Another advantage of the ATS milled stator is that after torque multiplication, when fluid needs to move PAST & THROUGH the stator, the milling ATS did allows MORE fluid to move past & through it. This means more power to the ground.



Now then, lets discuss the lock-up clutch surfaces! All very hush hush I am told, but I noticed Raybestos had made the linings on the clutches they put in my TC. ATS apparently also uses Cat, Borg-Warner & ABCO linings, (for other applications perhaps) but I think they only use Raybestos on the Dodge/Cummins. I'm not sure. The Raybestos material is a Carbon/Kevlar/cellulose material. Don got me to try to set it on fire with a lighter and it doesn't burn at all. It is bonded to the steel lockup discs with some sort of space-age adhesive which just won't melt, rip, creep or burn. The result is bomb-proof.

By now I think everyone knows of the "tabs" on each lock-up disc, which mate into corresponding "coves" in the billet cover.

This system is just un-slippable. It is so unslippable that they had to figure out a way to keep "lockup slam" from ruining other trans components. More on this later.
 
An Automatic Transmission is a SYSTEM. Each component of the system, whether it be a fluid-driving, fluid-routing, torque-bearing, or mechanical transfer part must be engineered for whatever torque demands an engine places on it. Dodge did a pretty darn good job of adapting an automatic for the un-bombed Cummins. As I say, mine lasted over 100,000 miles, most of it bombed and some of it towing a 32' TT up to Kernville from L. A.

However, many guys found out the limits of that system the hard way... they BROKE their transmissions due to massive power input. Don & Clint spent YEARS racing their trucks & faithfully blowing apart their Dodge Automatics! Then they would fix them and take them out and race them again and blow them apart again! And fix them again! In doing this they learned a whole bunch about the transmissions' weak points. And they have I think, successfully addressed every major area of failure in the Dodge trans. They didn't rush this. While other companies were hurrying into production & sales Don & Clint were keeping the pedal to the metal until their transmissions went Kabloowie and then they'd fix them. After awhile they noticed they were not blowing up transmissions anymore.



My truck accellerates much better off the line, and then briskly shifts into 2nd and briskly takes off again. Before my re-build all it seemed to do was roar loudly in 1st & 2nd and kind of slog off the line. It never really took off until it locked up in 3rd gear. All that changed with the re-build by ATS. Now it really goes in 1st & 2nd, due to the correctly milled stator, and it locks-up much stronger, but it doesn't slam you when it locks up, even under full power. This is because they figured out a way for the Triple-Lok to engage in "spurts" so that a torque spike doesn't take out the input shaft or something. The result is nice.



And I haven't even mentioned Rocky, their soccer playing dog! Yes if you go to ATS Rocky WILL beat your butt at soccer. He got about 25 basket-balls past me, while I only got about 2 by him. He is one of the smartest hounds I have ever seen. He will bring the ball up to you by running up the parking lot toward you, batting it along with his front legs. He watches you as he runs toward you, assessing your body language, and then when he gets about 5 feet away from you... Wham! He batts the ball right past you on the side you thought was safe! The only way I could reliably beat him was to get my toe under the ball and boot it over his head. He was just too good at catching them when I kept them in play on the ground.
 
can you hear me now?

is it safe to post now?;)



wouldn't fit in one? and fast too, wrote it out in a word program?



Great posts though!



Andrew
 
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Sorry! I started to write this stuff up yesterday, but realized I would be forever editing it, so I wrote it all as 5 e-mails which I then stored in the "drafts" section of my e-mail program and then just now, one by one I posted them! It was the only way I could figure out how to do such a lengthy

post! :eek:
 
Been following the auto posts lately and have seen that ATS runs cooler in traffic than other trannys, with a similar rpm stall compared to stock. An aquaintance has an auto and is aching to turn up the mighty Cummins, how much can the engine be turned up with "only" a T/C?
 
Great post, Good to hear positive attitudes on the TDR. Keep up the good posts and let us know how things go in the future.



Ron
 
Very interesting report. I brought up the fact last year that a PROPERLY MILLED STATOR works great and was promptly shouted down. I'm happy to see that we can discuss transmissions these days without all the flaming that used to occur. ATS sounds like a great place to visit.
 
Did I read that Don thinks he has 700HP on number 2 diesel alone? I think they are going to May Madness. Hopefully they will dyno and we will see.



Don~
 
Don, they are going to May madness. Ask Don Ramer for a ride in his truck. He says he wants to break a Mustang! Those compound turbo's really haul!



ZEEEW, mine runs cooler in traffic. In fact I thought they had forgotten to hook up the trans temp sender. So I crawled under it and it was hooked up!



When I mash the pedal the RPM's don't go as high initially as they did when the trans was stock. But the truck goes!



And there is one problem... I have an overhead console and I keep pens and stuff in it and when I take off from a stop light now it all flies out on the seat!



Dieselnerd, it is true. So many idiots have milled stators improperly that milled stators have gotten a bad rap. When you see ATS's milled stator you realize these guys have put some solid engineering into their approach. They know what they are doing. I just got my latest TDR Register, there is a big article in there about ATS.
 
and they said my post was long

They are a great company, and their product stands alone. I will definitely buy a TripleLok for my '04 when I get it. Can't believe that I want an automatic, but after driving this one around, it's what I have always wanted. Glad to see the some observations that I had about the company, the Crew, and the product. :)
 
It has to be nice to just put your foot down and let the transmission run through the gears,, pushing you back in the seat with every shift.



I just put a 6-speed in my truck, but am starting to think an auto swap might have given me a faster 1/4 mile. Right now I have to worry about shifting, unlike an auto.



rrausch excellent post, lots of info, and details,, but this remark is a little more vague than the rest... .

"3rd-Reverse clutches--ATS installs one additional clutch & steel over factory specs. "

What is factory spec, and how many does ATS install? From 4 to 5 ?? or how many does a stock 24V Auto truck have ?? and how many more does ATS put in ??



Thanks,

Merrick Cummings Jr
 
rrausch, Thanks for the post. I especially like the info about ATS's stator being milled. I can't believe that with all the ATS controversy in the past no one ever "accused", "revealed" (or what ever words you want to use) that info before. From personal experience I know that milled stators can be made correctly and it's great to see another successful company using one. Thanks
 
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