Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) need help with oil analysis, PLEASE HELP

[americana]

Dear fellow members I need your learned help!!!



My oil analysis has come back with a shockingly high copper number.



The oil analyzers said to replace the oil which I am going to do tonight.



What does copper signify? I dropped my rig off at my trusted mechanic (NOT a diesel mechanic) for a radiator flush and fill. His guess was a bearing may be failing!!!



History of rig. Only trailered a car and u-haul (open) junk trailer a couple of times. The rest of the load (light) has been junk in the bed. This truck has basically 85,000 babied miles!!



The only mods are 275's (thanks and RIP HVAC), Amsoil dual bypass with Amsoil oil, AFE Stage II with PG7, 4"SS exhaust, and Rickson wheels. I don't even hot rod it!! I just enjoy driving it around... . not much lately as I have a company truck!!!



The oil has about 50kmi on it. I only ad make-up oil to the filters when I change them. Oil was doing well until the Copper made its apprearance!!



Please help me diagnose this problem and get it fixed. I hate to see anything mechanical (especially something mechanical I own) get hurt or damaged ... . especially if it sounds expensive and this can get expensive, I'll bet.



Thanks in advance for any help.....

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

How high is "shockingly high"?



We need numbers - and personally, I have had poor results with OA in my own oil analysis as compared with 2 other identical samples taken at the same time to competing outfits - sometimes the internal components in an engine will "shed" microscopic copper particles that will temporarily slew results - other than things like coolers used in our engines, not many sources for copper...

 

[americana]

Gary, my mind is at least a little at ease knowing you are on the job!! nice to hear from you.



Off the top of my head it is something like 900 (units forgotten). I will post the exact numbers/units when I get home in a couple of hours. I will also have the oil analyzed (even though I am doing a 100% change).



Coolers... meaning water and oil? There was no measureable quantity of coolant in the analysis. I hope that means I don't have the dreaded cracking "53" block. One of these days I will crawl under the truck and find out once and for all!!



Talk to you later when I have complete info.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Hi Americana, quite likely the situation isn't nearly as serious as it seems. The high copper is probably coming from the oil cooler. If you were losing bearings your tin and lead readings would also be out of whack.



I have sampled oil on two of my CTD trucks and both went through a phase where the copper readings suddenly spiked into the 200-300s range without warning. After reading on TDR and realizing it was probably the oil cooler I decided to not worry about it. After a couple oil changes the numbers settled back down to normal. Sometimes I wonder if the additives in the oil sometimes react with the copper and cause it to leach out.



If you're into the 900s then it might be worth investigating and I would suspect the oil cooler (it's located behind the oil filter).



Vaughn

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Occasionally, copper numbers as high as yours pop up here - analysis outfits WILL flag the numbers as items to keep tabs on - but also usually mention common possible sources. The 53 block can always be an issue for those who have them but the worse they usually do is cause a coolent leak, and are not a source of copper contamination.



Try a search on "copper" on this board - you might find helpful info.



Here's a related post from one of those threads:

This is kinda long, but you wondered where the copper might be coming from.....



Dstarkey, I see from 20-100 of these oil analysis reports every month. mostly on 8. 3L's but also from 5. 9's, Cats, hydraulic systems, transmissions, etc. That doesn't make me an expert of your sample, I admit, because I haven't seen the total report nor the wear trend. ALSO, you rarely can make any kind of diagnosis from a single oil sample, unless it's *really* bad. What makes oil analysis work is the "long-term trend/pattern of repeated samples. "



High copper is very common on fluids with a copper heat exchanger in the system (and it shows up most often in fluids that have ran close to or over their effective life span, IMHO!), be it engine oil or hydraulic fluids. I commonly see high copper on diesel engines and hydraulic systems with only 500 hours or so of use. It used to freak me out until I realized that the oil analysis boys know what they are doing, and have seen countless thousands of these samples. Also years ago we used to kinda double-check engines for bearing wear, and even pull oil cooler cores for pressure testing, until we saw that the lab boys were right.



The trace copper in your sample is in all likelyhood coming from the engine oil cooler (which the oil filter base is a part of. ) Don't think of it as chunks or particles of copper; think of it about the same way as iron in your blood. It does NOT mean that your oil cooler tubes are shot. The copper *does* leach into the engine oil or hydraulic fluid at a steady rate from all heat exchangers. The longer the oil has been in the system; the higher the concentration of copper will be there; DOH! But this doesn't necessarily mean it's time to replace your cooler. I have samples from Case-IH 8. 3L engines with over 16000 hours operation and the original oil cooler is still in there leaching away, with no microscopic leakage between antifreeze and oil systems. It's the same oil cooler design as the 5. 9L.



If the oil cooler core does eventually leach out/erode enough to actually thin the cooler tubes, the 1st hint will be high antifreeze residue in your oil sample. The oil analysis lab can detect the presence of antifreeze long before you will have the slightest hint of it being there. If you ever do get antifreeze from the oil cooler, it will be followed shortly thereafter by engine oil in the radiator. The oil in the heat exchanger core is at a much higher pressure than the coolant so it will leak into the cooling system while the engine is running.



IF you see an undesirable particle count, along with a high lead count indicating bearing wear, I'm pretty certain you oil lab will quickly blow the whistle. These fellows are *darn* good at detecting that problem. If your turbo bearings are worn enough to start spiking the oil sample, you will most likely also have a high particle count. If it still concerns you that it could be your turbo, you will usually find engine oil in the intake manifold tubing downstream of the turbo, because worn turbo bearings will quickly damage the turbo shaft seals, and the resultant oil mist is blown downstream on the intake side. Also you'll get a constant exhaust smoke stream from the burnt oil.



Until the lab sounds an alarm, don't worry about it. You MIGHT be running the oil a tad long is the only thing I pick up from what you have reported. I don't want to start an oil war here, but ANY type or brand of oil with that kind of mileage on it is going to pick up high copper concentrations. Keep sampling; the extra cost at each oil change is like insurance that will pay off big-tim should your engine ever develop a lube-related problem.

 

[americana]

Thanks!!

You guys rock!!



A beer to Gary and Vaughn for easing my fears of an engine tear down/potential rebuild.



Shop didn't get to my truck today (coolant flush)... so I'll sample the old oil and change the oil and filters tomorrow as a general precaution.



All of this for a road trip to sell a super rare motorcycle of mine ('99 Magni Australia) :{ :{



Oh, well ... . the sacrifices a middle aged man makes when starting a family late in life... . baby Madeline's smile makes up for it!!!!



Again, guys, I can't thank you enough!

 

[americana]

most recent oil analysis as promised....sorry it's late

50kmi on oil 80kmi on engine



iron 74

Chromium 2

lead 8

copper 999

tin 0

aluminum 7

silicon 28

boron6

sodium 0

magnesium 22

calcium 3917

barium 0

phosphorus 1252

zinc 1390

molybdenum 0

titanium 0

vanadium 0

potassium 0



no fuel, water, glycol etc. soot<0. 1