Need machine shop recommendation in OKC area

[MattW]

Head Gasket blown after only 6k miles following rebuild.
Had head rebuilt put in studs and torqued to 125 ft lbs.
Truck runs 20 to 35 psi boost while towing. Staring suspect the the head has something wrong with it. Started blowing water into the overflow bottle. I'm looking for a good shop to have the head checked out.
I have it off and need truck back together ASAP.

Any help is appreciated!

 

[cerberusiam]

Diesel Machine is where we take all our diesel work to. Probably just blew the HG again as usual. If you want to bullet proof it, fire rings. There is a guy in Tulsa that is fire ringing the blocks and heads, needs a special jig to do it. Have used the guy in Tulsa for fire ringing the block and he will do heads.

You will want to check the block and make sure it is straight if you did not do that with a rebuild, never get a excellent head to hold if the block has issues.

 

[MattW]

Diesel Machine is where we take all our diesel work to. Probably just blew the HG again as usual. If you want to bullet proof it, fire rings. There is a guy in Tulsa that is fire ringing the blocks and heads, needs a special jig to do it. Have used the guy in Tulsa for fire ringing the block and he will do heads.

You will want to check the block and make sure it is straight if you did not do that with a rebuild, never get a excellent head to hold if the block has issues.

I know everything needs to be straight, but I literally tore down a motor that really didn't need it and reassembled it with studs. I never race this truck and it never sees over 35psi. It doesn't seem like I shouldn't be having this issue. That's why I'm suspecting a botched head job.
Only thing I can think that puts the motor under stress is when I'm towing I'm running about 30,000 pounds ,truck and trailer, and can run for several hours with the boost fluctuating between 20 and 32psi.

 

[cerberusiam]

What year truck?
What transmission?
What gears?
What tire size?
What studs did you use?
Deleted?
What are you running for a tuner?
What fueling and timing?
Do you have defuels set?
What injectors and how old are they?

Are you ONLY seeing surge tank air and overflow towing and after a period of time or ???

Of course you are going to see a whole lot more engine load towing 30k that you ever will hot rodding or even racing empty. That is the way a diesel works. At 30k you are pushing the limits of a deleted truck and no fire rings. EVERYTHING had better be spot on or on the low side or you will have HG issues. See the list of questions above, any one or a combination of several will cause a leak in an MLS gasket. The head is not necessarily lifting, the cylinder pressures can very well be pushing past the gasket because it does not have a fire ring to seal it.

You know everything has to be straight but did you check the block and make sure it was straight? Did you check the head on the rebuild to make sure it was smooth and straight? Why did you do a rebuild in the first place? Remember we cannot see or know what you have done, driving conditions, or anything else about the truck. You have to pretty much detail all the why's, what's, wherefores for us.

Please answer as fully as possible the above so we have all the info. I have been right where you are and learned a lot after researching and examining things.

 

[MattW]

What year truck? 2010
What transmission? 68rfe
What gears? 3.73
What tire size? Stock
What studs did you use? . Xotic Performance head studs.
Deleted? Of course
What are you running for a tuner? Absolutely
What fueling and timing? I'm not sure. It's whatever the programer defaults to. It's a RaceMe tuner.
Do you have defuels set? Not unless the tuner does it.
What injectors and how old are they? Stock injectors. 230k miles.

Are you ONLY seeing surge tank air and overflow towing and after a period of time or ??? It's started out as over a period of time. Then I noticed it worse when towing. The last trip towing it pushed out a gallon in 50 miles. After that it pushed about noticably even when not towing, but much slower then when I was towing.

Of course you are going to see a whole lot more engine load towing 30k that you ever will hot rodding or even racing empty. That is the way a diesel works. At 30k you are pushing the limits of a deleted truck and no fire rings. EVERYTHING had better be spot on or on the low side or you will have HG issues. See the list of questions above, any one or a combination of several will cause a leak in an MLS gasket. The head is not necessarily lifting, the cylinder pressures can very well be pushing past the gasket because it does not have a fire ring to seal it.

You know everything has to be straight but did you check the block and make sure it was straight? Did you check the head on the rebuild to make sure it was smooth and straight? I did not check that it was straight. I did stone it to make sure it was clean. I'm a machinist and engineer so I'm aware what it takes to get a clean surface. What I'm not sure of is if the surface can be to smooth. Why did you do a rebuild in the first place? There was a severe oil leak behind the gear case that couldn't be fixed without tearing off the whole front of the engine. A then it started getting a slight amount of oil in the coolant and was bubbling in the radiator. Figured HG. Remember we cannot see or know what you have done, driving conditions, or anything else about the truck. You have to pretty much detail all the why's, what's, wherefores for us.

Please answer as fully as possible the above so we have all the info. I have been right where you are and learned a lot after researching and examining things.

See answers above.
When I tore down the engine everything was to factory spec. Little to no wear. Decided that I didn't want to have to do this again for a long time so put it back together with all new parts, pistons, rings, bearing, etc. Also, the engine has never been overheated.

I was under the impression that fire rings were primarily for race application. Thought the can't stand the numerous heat cycling if a daily driver.
I'm definitely open to suggestions. I ordered a precision straight edge so I can check the block. The engine is still in the truck so if the block is straight, do I have any options for getting the HG to hold without a remove and complete teardown?
Sorry for not being detailed in the first place. Really started out to just get a recommendation for a shop, but your response got me wondering. I appreciate your input for sure!

 

[GAmes]

Truck runs 20 to 35 psi boost while towing.

Boost will not blow a head gasket. Cylinder pressure in normal operation measures in the hundreds. An additional 20 or 30 psi doesn't make much difference.

 

[MattW]

Boost will not blow a head gasket. Cylinder pressure in normal operation measures in the hundreds. An additional 20 or 30 psi doesn't make much difference.

That make sense, but to some degree more boost does raise pressure.
Are you saying that maybe there might be something else wrong? If so what?

 

[GAmes]

If the block is straight and the head is good I would suspect installation or a faulty gasket. When I install a head, since it is so heavy, I install two long studs one on the front and one on the rear of the block, drop the gasket on and then use the studs as guides to lower the head using a hoist. I personally see no need for fire rings in a stock, daily driver engine.

 

[jghflys]

Check the head for cracks. Mine was cracked at 200K. Factory gaskets have a built in metal fire ring installed. For higher HP grooves are cut at the tops of the cylinders and a thicker fire ring is installed. Millions of trucks are towing heavy loads every day without the additional work and expense of machining and thicker fire rings. Look carefully at the gasket for the leak path, it will show up if it was the head gasket.

 

[cerberusiam]

Where are you located?

Lot of urban myth about head studs and fire rings just being passed on with no logical thought as to the validity of it. If fire rings are going to leak then every 12V and 24V is going to suffer the same issues and they don't. FYI, those engines all have fire rings built into the gasket that is essentially the same materiel and as the rings used in a fire ring kit. You are familiar with Scheids Diesel, correct? Fire rings are are one of their recommend steps for bullet proofing as 6.7 not matter its usage.

You are seeing the typical issue with the MLS gaskets on a 6.7, they last until they don't. The head studs you have are equivalent to ARP 2000 (ie 425's) and work fine for a lot of use depending on other things, essentially tuning and fire rings. The 625's being touted are the true high performance head stud per ARP and there will be many that claim they are the only solution, erroneously as it has been proven.

Which RaceME tuner do you have? Ultra? Pro? Does it look like a big TV controller? Did you buy a custom tune for it or just use the box tunes?

You need to go thru the tuner setup and see what it is set to and what can be adjusted. If you just pull in a standard box tune and NOT set timing correctly you will eventually just cause a HG leak again. The 6.7's run way too much timing as a default anyway, unless you back it off to stock on a box tune or modify the timing modifiers and adders you will have too much timing that will just add to the issues. Even on stock timing with the timing adders and modifiers the tune still can run excessive timing because it doesn't account for all the changes. You have to pull the delete tune with HP Tuners and start looking thru the tables to see what is actually happening. With an auto trans you won't notice it is much, but, a worn out G-56 will definitely give audio indications what is happening.

Boost not causing issues is really too simplistic. It is not the boost numbers itself but the downstream effect on cylinder pressures that does it. That much boost is going to require fuel, add to that timing and the lack of EGR to hold cylinder temps and pressures down a MLS gasket is not going to hold long.

Injectors failing by over fueling is enough to take out an HG sans a fire ring, been there done that. You have to watch back pressure on the HE351 also or you end up with way more cylinder temp and pressure than is indicated. They have a nasty habit of failing and driving that over 100 psi in the right circumstances.

Since the head has to come off my advice is get the custom gasket set for fire rings, get the head grooved for the rings, and check your tune carefully for what it is really doing.

 

[GAmes]

Does Blumenthal do machine work?

 

[MattW]

I personally see no need for fire rings in a stock, daily driver engine.

The truck is certainly not stock, but I didn't think it was anywhere near the point of needing fire rings, than again this is my first 6.7.
What I don't want is a truck I'm afraid to use the available power. I really like being able maintain a decent speed when towing.

 

[cerberusiam]

I personally see no need for fire rings in a stock, daily driver engine.

Unfortunately the engine is question is not stock and it is not a DD truck. These 6.7's once deleted are a completely different animal than a 5.9 of any vintage.

Blumenthal's builds transmissions and driveline pieces, they leave the engine work to Diesel Machine and others.

 

[MattW]

Where are you located? South of OKC. Chickasha


You have to pull the delete tune with HP Tuners and start looking thru the tables to see what is actually happening. With an auto trans you won't notice it is much, but, a worn out G-56 will definitely give audio indications what is happening. So, I have never been to happy with the RaceMe tuner. It's what I believe they call the Junior model. It does have the ability to do some type of timing modification, but I've not messed with it.
I see you mentioned the HP Tuners. I this something that ultimately can replace my RaceMe? I'll be honest I would love the ability to do custom tuning, but I really don't have them to to learn it right now. Need something that I can get a custom tune from someone that knows. Is that something that HP Tuners can do?


Injectors failing by over fueling is enough to take out an HG sans a fire ring, been there done that. Is there away to know if the injectors are bad? They are a bit costly to just replace to see if it helps.

You have to watch back pressure on the HE351 also or you end up with way more cylinder temp and pressure than is indicated. They have a nasty habit of failing and driving that over 100 psi in the right circumstances. The turbo is brand new.

Since the head has to come off my advice is get the custom gasket set for fire rings, get the head grooved for the rings, and check your tune carefully for what it is really doing.

I think I'm about convinced to go with a fire ringed head, just need to figure out the tuner.
Does Diesel Machine put rings in the head?

 

[cerberusiam]

I am just up 81 a bit in Minco.

No, Diesel Machine does not do fire rings. CnSmoke in Tulsa is the only one around that has the jigs to do it. Here is the link and contact info: https://www.facebook.com/Cnsmoke-Diesel-Performance-138680389558910/

It depends on what the RaceME does to the ECM like locking it. With an S67 we grabbed the existing image in an 07 ECM, unloaded the Smarty, reloaded the ECM with HP Tuners and the delete image all stayed then we could custom tune things. My son is working all that out but we have a highly modified engine also, colt Stage 3 cam, HE451VE turbo, wider rings gaps than stock because the issues we found were the rings touching and scoring the cylinder when they got to hot.

The HE451VE is responsible for a lot the performance we have because it is 80 lb\minute at 40 psi turbo, had to basically turn it all the way down to keep it in check. If ypu want a reliable engine, the injectors need to be addressed. Not had good luck with even under 200k injectors and have had to replace several remans. DAP has new 6.7 injectors at a decent price the last time I talked to them.

We can run the cylinder contribution tests with AutoEnginuity and get snapshot of injector health, about the only way to really tell how "good" they are.

 

[MattW]

I have the Autoeginuity, but have really got into using it much. I bought it to do the calibration on the new turbo.
I was just thinking that if I could just get a custom tune via HP Tuners, then I could just sell the RaceMe. Doesn't sound like that's an option. Oh and did I mention that the wife is having a fit about how much this is costing? She is trying to tell me I should have just bought a new one.
BTW. Your truck sounds like a awesome project!

 

[cerberusiam]

AutoEnginuity has a test procedure for the injector contribution in percentages. With engine up to operating temp you can get real time contribution on the injectors. Should have a a kill test also. With those 2 you can get a pretty good snapshot of injector health.

We just won't let your wife and my DIL compare notes on cost of these diesel fixes.

 

[MattW]

I am just up 81 a bit in Minco.

No, Diesel Machine does not do fire rings. CnSmoke in Tulsa is the only one around that has the jigs to do it. Here is the link and contact info: https://www.facebook.com/Cnsmoke-Diesel-Performance-138680389558910/

What should I expect to pay for fire rings? I called CnSmoke and the price he gave me seemed a bit out of line. I don't want to publicly throw him under the bus as he was really good to talk to me about what needed done. I get the feeling that the gasket is where the expense is. He quoted ARP 425 studs nearly $175 higher that online prices.