Has anyone used the in tank module that Chrysler is using with the existing lift pump to create a pusher setup? I was thinking today that the in tank module puts out 7-10 PSI and the carter from summit is putting putting out 7-8 PSI. So this should in theory work. The reason that I am asking is that I have chance to get one of the new setups in replacement of my failed LP. I have ordered a new LP from Hoesli Diesel becauce I have the Vulcan setup on my truck and was thinking about putting the intank module in to push to the LP and the LP to push from there. Any ideas or thoughts on this setup? I am thinking of trying this setup and if I do not like it go back to the previous setup.
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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) New intank pump as a pusher pump
- Thread starter MBFARMS
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Ive read good and bad, probly more bad, on these pumps.
As far as personal experience im 0 for 1, a guy called me --found my# on the travel companoin!! -- asked some thech qustions about general fuel system stuff, no real troubleshooting, but it sounds like his buddy was having trouble from square one. That pump just couldnt get fuel to the engine, he was trying to avoind removal to take parts back for warranty cause its such a PITA to get out!
I didnt get his name, but he had a FLA # on my call ID.
As far as personal experience im 0 for 1, a guy called me --found my# on the travel companoin!! -- asked some thech qustions about general fuel system stuff, no real troubleshooting, but it sounds like his buddy was having trouble from square one. That pump just couldnt get fuel to the engine, he was trying to avoind removal to take parts back for warranty cause its such a PITA to get out!
I didnt get his name, but he had a FLA # on my call ID.
VHolloway said:
YUP
John
I think it would be a really good fuel delivery system
With positive pressure on the suction line, the lift pump is less likey to cavitate,It will deliver a more solid colume of fuel to the injection pump.MBFARMS said:
Submersable pumps RULE in pumping water, maybe a good in tank model would be better.
You can push a liquid much easier than pulling it.
You can push a liquid much easier than pulling it.
I have thought about if the in tank module goes out will it pull by it. I am looking to basically test this setup. Getting free parts so why not. Just wanting to know if anyone had any experience with this setup. Fass II just is not for me right now. It might be a good pump, but availability while on the road and price keep me from dealing with it. You just cannot go to the local parts store and buy a new Fass, plus there just isn't that many diesel performance shops on the east coast. The closest one is Opoole and that is 1. 5 hours or more from where I am. My main areas of interest in this project would be to see if you can pull fuel by the in tank module, see what fuel pressure #'s I get, and look at the module itself. Probably will not run this setup permanently, but just adding another option for others that do not want to go the fass route or have the in tank module and want another solution. If you already had the intank module it would be very cheap to put a new LP in the factory location and run both pumps.
Maybe a second idea -
1. Return your fuel from the VP44 to the tank filler line.
2. Use the intank pump as they install it on the tank fuel feed line.
3. Use the tank return line with your second pump as a feed line. I do not know if the return line goes as far down in the tank as the OEM fuel feed line though.
Gives you 2 feed lines.
Sends the hot return fuel to the main body of the tank for better mixing.
Just an idea,
Bob Weis
1. Return your fuel from the VP44 to the tank filler line.
2. Use the intank pump as they install it on the tank fuel feed line.
3. Use the tank return line with your second pump as a feed line. I do not know if the return line goes as far down in the tank as the OEM fuel feed line though.
Gives you 2 feed lines.
Sends the hot return fuel to the main body of the tank for better mixing.
Just an idea,
Bob Weis
MBFARMS said:
why not throw a hamster wheel pump on the side of the frame to back this up. ... .
sorry, all kidding aside, but now you have two systems that are proven to be prone to failure, not to mention what happens when intank pumpA doesnt flow what liftpumpB does.
people build "pusher" systems because other options are not feasable at the time, not because they are a "good reliable system"
yes, sub. pumps are the best way to go, but nobody is marketing a reliable submersable fuel pump kit yet(that i know of anyway) for the dodge diesel crowd
Good ideas so far.
Skneeland "now you have two systems that are proven to be prone to failure, not to mention what happens when intank pumpA doesnt flow what liftpumpB does. "
No offense, but I am yet to read a post of an in tank pump failure. The main complaint with the in tank pump is the low fuel pressure and not supplying enough fuel to keep the VP lubed and cool. There are many reliable pusher setups out there, but if you really look at the PSI numbers, they match the numbers of reliable pusher pump pressures. From what I have read the Carter pushers put out 7-8 PSI and the in tank setups that I have read about put out that same range. I have only seen one bad thing happen to an in tank module so far. One person got trashy fuel and it clogged the screen at the pump. That could happen to people that even has the Fass. The pickup screen gets clogged and there you are. In my test I plan to kill the power to the in tank module to see if the LP will still pull fuel by it. Keep the ideas coming.
Skneeland "now you have two systems that are proven to be prone to failure, not to mention what happens when intank pumpA doesnt flow what liftpumpB does. "
No offense, but I am yet to read a post of an in tank pump failure. The main complaint with the in tank pump is the low fuel pressure and not supplying enough fuel to keep the VP lubed and cool. There are many reliable pusher setups out there, but if you really look at the PSI numbers, they match the numbers of reliable pusher pump pressures. From what I have read the Carter pushers put out 7-8 PSI and the in tank setups that I have read about put out that same range. I have only seen one bad thing happen to an in tank module so far. One person got trashy fuel and it clogged the screen at the pump. That could happen to people that even has the Fass. The pickup screen gets clogged and there you are. In my test I plan to kill the power to the in tank module to see if the LP will still pull fuel by it. Keep the ideas coming.
i know of 3 personal friends that have had the intank conversion done. all 3 have since replaced them with aftermarket systems (one after killing his vp). this doesnt include the large number of people i dont know that are unhappy with DC "magical" fix.
theres many documented cases of people with the intank pump pulling their fuel pressure down to 1-3psi, some even to vacuum(probably more than you think, without the proper gauge, vacuum reads zero). this is a fairly recent mod. im guessing only time will tell how well it works.
all things being equal , say your carter LP puts out 7psi under load. now you replace the carter with another pump(same lines, fittings , etc. ) and now your pressure is 3 psi under the same circumstances. its a safe logical assumption that the second pump flows less than the first. Now i dont know for a fact what will happen , but i can guess, when you try to supply a 75 gph pump with a 50gph pump. it may work , it may not, just seems to me that this is still just like putting a bandaid on the situation.
if anyone actually has manufacturers specs on these intank pumps i would be interested in seeing them.
theres many documented cases of people with the intank pump pulling their fuel pressure down to 1-3psi, some even to vacuum(probably more than you think, without the proper gauge, vacuum reads zero). this is a fairly recent mod. im guessing only time will tell how well it works.
all things being equal , say your carter LP puts out 7psi under load. now you replace the carter with another pump(same lines, fittings , etc. ) and now your pressure is 3 psi under the same circumstances. its a safe logical assumption that the second pump flows less than the first. Now i dont know for a fact what will happen , but i can guess, when you try to supply a 75 gph pump with a 50gph pump. it may work , it may not, just seems to me that this is still just like putting a bandaid on the situation.
if anyone actually has manufacturers specs on these intank pumps i would be interested in seeing them.
I am not trying to start an argument with this thread, just asking the possibilities. Yes I do agree that by itself( no other pump in line with it) the in tank pump is useless, but if it could feed enough pressure and volume to the inlet side of the lp to make a nice pusher setup. By itself the in tank pump has caused problems, but I have not heard of a in tank pump failure. Yes low pressure, VP failures, and other probelms, but I could say that the carter pusher pump( the second pump that pushes to the LP) is a bad pump too. By itself the carter pump would do the same as the intank pump, low pressure etc, but a low pressure pump is what you want in a pusher setup( correct me if I am wrong, just going by threads that I have read). Again this is just going to be a test setup to maybe help someone that had the intank pump and needs another solution. I currently have a vulcan lp relocate kit on my truck and just trying to maybe help out since I am getting the intank kit for basically free. If I had to buy the in tank kit I would say no way. I would either keep my LP and relocate it ( like I have already) or buy a fass or other kit. Just a question skneeland, what are the people doing that have the in tank pump and go to another solution? Are they leaving the pump in the tank and adding say a fass II or are they replacing the module with an older style module? Just have been wondering about that and have never heard anyone elaborate about it other than they got another setup.
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Some random thoughts... ... Someone ran a poll on the in-tank pumps and it seemed that there was a very low failure rate for the pumps themselves. Yes that is for stock trucks.
How long after the ITP was installed did the VP's die? Were they already wounded?
Everyone talks about a "Pusher" pump... Are they still pulling fuel UP the line in the tank and to the relocated pump? Isn't it just less of a puller?
I'm thinking about installing a bulkhead AN style fitting in the side of the tank at the bottom edge and having gravity feed a true full pusher pump on the frame. Any thoughts about this? I want to use all AN style fittings and completely by-pass the block-off plate that the ITP is using in lieu of the original LP location (That was a stupid idea going through that!)
Thanx!
How long after the ITP was installed did the VP's die? Were they already wounded?
Everyone talks about a "Pusher" pump... Are they still pulling fuel UP the line in the tank and to the relocated pump? Isn't it just less of a puller?
I'm thinking about installing a bulkhead AN style fitting in the side of the tank at the bottom edge and having gravity feed a true full pusher pump on the frame. Any thoughts about this? I want to use all AN style fittings and completely by-pass the block-off plate that the ITP is using in lieu of the original LP location (That was a stupid idea going through that!)
Thanx!
Learguy, what you are wanting to do has been done before. It has been a long time since I have seen that thread, but yes it was done and the person was happy with the results.
"How long after the ITP was installed did the VP's die? Were they already wounded?"
Good point.
"Everyone talks about a "Pusher" pump... Are they still pulling fuel UP the line in the tank and to the relocated pump? Isn't it just less of a puller?"
Yes. Electric pumps are more of a pusher than puller, so what most people do is either put a standalone pump by the tank or create a pusher setup. With the standalone unit you are looking to put the pump by the tank so there is less pulling and it can concentrate on pushing. With the pusher setup you leave the LP in the stock location and put a lower pressure pump (usually a carter 4600 pump, not sure the part number) by the tank to push to the LP. Gary-k7gld has a pusher setup (http://community.webshots.com/user/davison71). What the pusher does is feed the LP so it has to do less pulling and thus the LP lasts longer. This pusher setup is only used with the old style tank module and not the new in tank setup.
"How long after the ITP was installed did the VP's die? Were they already wounded?"
Good point.
"Everyone talks about a "Pusher" pump... Are they still pulling fuel UP the line in the tank and to the relocated pump? Isn't it just less of a puller?"
Yes. Electric pumps are more of a pusher than puller, so what most people do is either put a standalone pump by the tank or create a pusher setup. With the standalone unit you are looking to put the pump by the tank so there is less pulling and it can concentrate on pushing. With the pusher setup you leave the LP in the stock location and put a lower pressure pump (usually a carter 4600 pump, not sure the part number) by the tank to push to the LP. Gary-k7gld has a pusher setup (http://community.webshots.com/user/davison71). What the pusher does is feed the LP so it has to do less pulling and thus the LP lasts longer. This pusher setup is only used with the old style tank module and not the new in tank setup.
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one fatal flaw in the pusher design as you mention it is fuel line size. in order to supply the same volume from the pusher pump at lower pressure, its suction lines and the lines going to the "hp" pump need to be larger than the lines from the hp pump(not to mention its internals). pressure is only half the equation
for example, at work i have a 4inch centrifigal pump at a tank(4 inch lines on its suction & output side to the hp pump) it puts out 1500-2000 lpm at 20psi. it then supplies a piston pump that puts out 5000-15000psi @ 100-1000 lpm through 2 inch lines.
you cannot pump fluid through the same size lines, keep the same volume, & have 2 radically different pressures. to work efficiently, the pusher pump needs to put out significantly more volume than the hp pump. if you expect it to do so at lower pressures , you must have larger lines(and pump internals) to increase the volume.
if you cant increase the line size, the pusher pump then has to pump at an equal or higher pressure than the "hp" pump to keep up with the same volume
for example, at work i have a 4inch centrifigal pump at a tank(4 inch lines on its suction & output side to the hp pump) it puts out 1500-2000 lpm at 20psi. it then supplies a piston pump that puts out 5000-15000psi @ 100-1000 lpm through 2 inch lines.
you cannot pump fluid through the same size lines, keep the same volume, & have 2 radically different pressures. to work efficiently, the pusher pump needs to put out significantly more volume than the hp pump. if you expect it to do so at lower pressures , you must have larger lines(and pump internals) to increase the volume.
if you cant increase the line size, the pusher pump then has to pump at an equal or higher pressure than the "hp" pump to keep up with the same volume
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MB, that was my point exactly. What everyone is calling a "Pusher" pump is actually just less of a Puller pump. I also agree with that the first pump must feed more material than the second pump for efficiency. What I am concluding is the limiting factor is the inlet to the VP. You can replace the fuel filter if you are willing to loose the WIF sensor and fuel heater.
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