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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) New Lift Pump Pressure's

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This new pump surprized me, Im assumeing this is a Dodge part #5015723ac. After getting my truck home from the stealer, I checked the pressure's.



Starter Bump 16 P. S. I.

Idle 15 P. S. I.

w. o. t. 12 P. S. I.

Has any one had these reading's, With a fresh pump? This is the first one for me seem's these pressure's will do. Harv
 
Fuel pressure

Hello Radar Im in the learning process here also,I have been following the post on the TDR and the way I understand it is cummin's say's 8 P. S. I. min the get the proper cooling for the injection pump. Hope this helped. Harv
 
Harv, I was seeing the same psi as you're now seeing on my '02 - pressure was fine, but I went ahead and installed a Carter 4600 pusher pump just for insurance, since I was installing an Edge Comp power module, and also tow a 5th wheel trailer in the Sierras fairly often... Overkill SHOULD be just about right!;) :D
 
Pusher Pump

Been thinking on that also, I have a long list for my truck, and the pusher pump is one on it. Thank's for the info Im like a kid in a candy store with my truck and with the Exsperiance on the TDR sure make's it nice to have a cummin's. Harv
 
HWhite,

With a new LP from Cummings I see 15. 5 or so at idle, 12-12. 5 at 65-70 mph highway cruise, and 9+ at WOT on a stock 99 5sp.



RADAR,

The 6 is lower than the DC spec of 8. Get it changed asap if you can.
 
Ditto Isenus' readings. Had a new LP put in at the dealer under warranty about 6 weeks ago.



Can't hardly get that sucker under 10 psi now even with my foot mashed darn near thru the floorboard... .....
 
Originally posted by hwhite

the way I understand it is cummin's say's 8 P. S. I. min the get the proper cooling for the injection pump. Hope this helped. Harv



I would like to know where Cummins stated this? I mean I would REALLY like to know?



I personally don’t believe that 6 psi at WOT indicates a bad Lift Pump (a little weak maybe, but not bad), but other well-respected people do. For example, Dave Fritz’s Page; (which is very good mind you) he says “Bad or weak lift pump - these have a nasty reputation for high failure rates. Minimum pump pressure should be 8 psi under all conditions. “ Rob Spading -- dieselram.com Webmaster says “Absolute minimum pressure is 8 psi; anything below that and you need either a new lift pump on a stock truck or an upgraded fuel system on a modified truck. ” (I haven’t seen the “official” statement regarding this from either Dodge, Cummins, or Carter. )



These figures would be for a stock truck. All bets are off if you require the injection pump to pump more fuel. The main indication of a bad Lift Pump is erratic pressure readings with pressures at times going to 0 (or less) at idle. 6 psi is not bad for the injection pump. 0 is not bad for the injection pump, but a 6 psi reading on a stock truck could indicate that the Lift Pump is weaker than the latest pumps Carter is supplying. Of course this is assuming that the gauge is reading correctly. Gages can be off too.



There are two issues here. What psi on a stock truck indicates a good/bad Lift Pump and what psi keeps the injection pump happy. And the psi numbers are NOT the same.
 
The 8 psi number is supposed to be the number that the STAR line is working with, the number they are utilizing as the benchmark at which the LP should not dip below under any conditions, or the LP should be replaced under warranty.



I believe it used to be 7 psi per the STAR line, they are now working with 8 psi, and that info was posted by members who either work for DC and/or have spoken to the STAR line or been told by the service writer or mech that these are the specs the STAR line is using as their benchmark.



You're right, given that a gauge can be off +/- 2 psi, at 6 psi I wouldn't be overly concerned but WATCHFUL. At that point there's a good chance that the readings will continue to degrade and a replacement LP is most likely in your future.



However, a big GOTTA DISAGREE when you state that modifications should/will impact either the VP44 or the LP; what should it matter HOW MUCH fuel is being called for by the VP44 due to mods, regardless, the LP should continue to maintain the pressure it was engineered and designed for. Meaning, if a mod (i. e. EZ) is a fueling box and more fuel is being called for the LP should be supplying it, PERIOD. It is a mechanical device, and its function is to supply 8 psi or greater at all times.



I personally refuse to believe that the basic mods, i. e. fueling and/or timing boxes, are responsible for LP failures for the reasons above, as well as the fact that many people WITHOUT any mods, bone stock, have experienced LP failures.



Whether or not the VP44 actually NEEDS a certain PSI to maintain its functionality and lubricity with the 'extra fuel' that is being supplied by the LP is not my arena, and is a discussion that is ongoing in another thread (pressure vs. volume and what a Bosch engineer claims is 'needed' by the VP44). However, these are DC's standards and if the VP44 required 0 or -2 psi, why are we eating injection pumps? Why is the LP there at all, if the VP44 requires 0 to -2 psi, as I believe the Bosch engineer states?



I had a loss of power (subjective), other people have described bucking, jerking, hard starting, performance problems when an LP is not working properly. Why is that, if the VP44 requires 0, -2 psi?



With my EZ, and a new LP, my FP is never less than 10 psi under any conditions.



It has been documented on here time and again how people have watched their FP degrade over time and eventually fail, the degradation being symptomatic of an LP that is on its way out.

Therefore 6 psi, give or take, bears watching as a possible future LP failure.



Also, it's not always an 'erratic' reading that indicates a bad LP, mine was 7-8 psi at idle and would immediately under throttle head straight for 0 psi or less in a true trajectory, no bouncing or fluctuation. Dead.



I don't know how much research you've done on this problem, if you've had the problem yourself, or ever checked your FP, but don't be so dismissive of fellow members findings and questions/ concerns based on what a Bosch engineer said which may or may not have been misinterpreted (or simply a misundertanding of the question on his part), if he was possibly speaking about pressures internal to the VP44 and not necessarily the pressures at the inlet being delivered by the LP.





zman
 
"I personally refuse to believe that the basic mods, i. e. fueling and/or timing boxes, are responsible for LP failures for the reasons above, as well as the fact that many people WITHOUT any mods, bone stock, have experienced LP failures. "





PLUS, let's not overlook extensive testing done in conjunction with Bill Kondolay, that revealed that across a number of varying engine mods and operating conditions, the MAX GPH flow seen was 30 GPH - this from a pump capable of 100 GPH free flow - and even at it's design PSI, probably considerable safety margin in volume up and above the 30 GPH figure - a healthy lift pump SHOULD have plenty to absorb the additional power demands the vast majority are asking the VP44 to support...
 
Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

PLUS, let's not overlook extensive testing done in conjunction with Bill Kondolay, that revealed that across a number of varying engine mods and operating conditions, the MAX GPH flow seen was 30 GPH - this from a pump capable of 100 GPH free flow - and even at it's design PSI, probably considerable safety margin in volume up and above the 30 GPH figure - a healthy lift pump SHOULD have plenty to absorb the additional power demands the vast majority are asking the VP44 to support...



Gary,

While I don't I don't agree with some of the earlier tests on fuel system, flow and pressure--you may be right regarding 30GPH being enough for additional power demands. The question (problem??) is how much additional power demand can the rest of the system handle? The lines and banjos are restrictive. I'm still on my original VP44 with heavy fueling and high hp. My VP44 sees 20+psi from the lift pump daily and has for a couple of years.

Was told at Scheids Extravaganza that a Bosch engineer said that 20lbs would cause parts to "bend" in a VP44 :rolleyes:

Larry
 
Originally posted by zimman20

However, a big GOTTA DISAGREE when you state that modifications should/will impact either the VP44 or the LP; what should it matter HOW MUCH fuel is being called for by the VP44 due to mods, regardless, the LP should continue to maintain the pressure it was engineered and designed for zman



Zman, good post, well done. That’s what’s great about the TDR forums, there is no need to necessarily agree, but we should find it fun and informative along the way.



It may be a matter of semantics, but I don’t believe I said modifications will impact either the VP44 or the LP (not sure what that would mean? Maybe you should have quoted the context). Anyway, I should have said that modifications (i. e. increasing the fueling needs of the engine) will affect the readings you see when measuring the pressure between the OEM LP and VP at WOT. I will definitely admit to that. Physics and some facts presented on the TDR testify to that. You said something key to the whole Lift Pump/psi question when you wrote “the LP should continue to maintain the pressure it was engineered and designed for…”



Here is a silly example, but I want to use it anyway. Take a straw that has a pressure gauge fitted to it. Now when you blow through it with your finger on the other end to prevent any air from escaping you may measure 5 psi if you can blow hard (zero volume). Take your finger off of the end and you can blow until your blue in the face and the pressure will read zero (maximum volume). Get your wife or girlfriend to suck on the straw while you’re blowing and …Aw poor example. Try this, hook the straw up to a shop vac and turn it on. Now try blowing in it. After your cheeks implode you will see negative pressure (more volume than you can supply). Nothing changed about your ability to create 5 psi or the volume you could supply, but the demand changed.



The same is true of the OEM LP. It can only supply a certain amount of fuel at a specific pressure. When the VP is told to pump more than its stock brethren, the pressure WILL drop to less than 8 psi at WOT. If you don’t want the pressure to drop, then you will have to find a pump with more huevos. What psi do you see at idle vs. WOT. There is a drop in pressure because of the demand on the LP. More demand by the VP, the more the drop.



But that’s all I want to say about that. Those discussions should be on the VP or similar thread. I think the intentions of this thread were to help identify what constitutes a bad lift pump. Of course we have had these discussions before, but I noticed that some of the folks asking are relatively new to the forum, at least as far as posting goes.



And I also completely agree with you that the mods we are doing to the Cummins are not causing the LP problems. I think the consensus on that is it’s where the LP is mounted that is causing a good part of the problem. (Besides the problems Carter may have had – or maybe is having) Like many have already said, the pump is supposed to push, not suck. Besides, in any manufacturing environment, there are going to be some bad units that pass QC.



And Gary, the 30gph was not the amount of fuel the LP was supplying, it was pumping more than that. The 30gph is what was being returned to the fuel tank by the VP. That didn’t include what was being used by the engine. Also, did you notice what the pressure readings were while at WOT and the 30gph were being returned to the fuel tank? It wasn’t 8 psi.



Sorry I veered off the subject, my apologies to everyone.



p. s. Oh, one more for the road. The Dodge Service manual gives the minimum pressure for the LP too. You might find this interesting, so I'll quote it... "With the engine running, the pump has 2 modes of operation: Mode 1: 100 percent duty-cycle with a minimum pressure of 10 psi except when the engine is cranking. " Of course they will probably say that is at idle. "Engine running" is kind of vague. FYI
 
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"And Gary, the 30gph was not the amount of fuel the LP was supplying, it was pumping more than that. The 30gph is what was being returned to the fuel tank by the VP. That didnÂ’t include what was being used by the engine. "



Undoubtedly true - it's been a while since I read that thread - but I'll guarantee you that under even the heaviest loads, the Cummins will *consume* FAR less fuel than 30 GPH, and that figure (30 GPH) will usually be by far the larger percentage of fuel supplied by the LP... ;)
 
These figures would be for a stock truck. All bets are off if you require the injection pump to pump more fuel.




Above is the quote where I thought you were implying that mods would adversely affect the LP's ability to provide a minimum 8 psi.



I'm glad my post didn't come across as a flame to you, that was certainly not my intention.



I certainly hope that the quote you took from the DC service manual isn't implying that the pressure should only/can only be read at idle, because we've heard tell on these boards and I've seen with my own eyes that a pressure of anywhere from 7-12 psi can be read at idle even with a dead LP , because the VP44 will PULL enough fuel for you to get a reading, you'll only see the pressure go to 'heck' when under throttle, indicating that the LP is not providing the pressure you're seeing at idle when the LP is dead.



Maybe what we should be comparing is 'mad mods' of the 350+ HP variety when we're talking about what kind of mods would make the LP unable to maintain the volume of fuel being required at 8+ psi at the inlet to the VP44, the kind of mods which motivate people to upgrade their fuel lines, banjo bolts, etc. to allow more VOLUME at the same pressure.



I've tried to understand your straw reference and I think I see where you're coming from, that based on the volume demanded the pressure can't keep up? I'm not a fluid dynamics expert by any means, but my example would be to think of a compressor. You'd set the PSI required for a given tool, say 90 psi, the tool requires that PSI be maintained to work. If you have a compressor that's capable of maintaining that pressure, the only variable would be the compressor's ability to maintain the VOLUME of air required to maintain that pressure, no? And at that point, if the compressor doesn't have the volume necessary to maintain the pressure then the available pressure (psi) begins to drop accordingly. Ok, I can see that.



However, we're talking about serious mods that could do that to the stock fuel delivery system. I'll tell you that most of us, myself included, cannot get the pressure to drop below a certain point even with basic mods (for me it's 10 psi with a new lift pump with my EZ), those basic type of mods should not cause a pressure drop at the inlet of the VP44. And most of these basic types of mods are easy enough to disconnect to confirm pressures without the mods to prove either to ourselves or to the dealer that the LP is dead/dying.



I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe that with basic mods that pressures would be/should be reduced when more fuel is required and is being demanded by the VP44 to provide the power being demanded. I'm thinking the pressure (PSI) should remain steady and the only variable is the VOLUME of fuel that the LP is capable of delivering at that PSI, based on the size of the fuel delivery system, i. e. fuel lines, banjo bolts, et al. , and as long as the volume of the fuel delivery system is not overcome by the demand from the VP44 the pressure being provided by the LP at the inlet to the VP44 should remain steady. And, if you've got the kind of mad mods that would cause a volume of fuel to be called for that would render the LP unable to maintain a 'spec' pressure, say 8 psi, you'd at least have a PARTICULAR pressure (say 5-6 psi) that you could not cause to go down under any circumstances, and you'd either know it was your 'mad mods' that was the cause or you could disconnect some or all mods to prove that without said mods you could maintain the factory 8 psi or better.



Hope the above makes sense, sorry for the long post but I, and I'm sure other people, would like to get some of these factors straight in our heads and try not to cause confusion for some of our newer members. We get enough confusion and doublespeak from the dealers when we go to them to try to get what we perceive as our problems fixed.



zman :cool:
 
I Propose A Test...

Good post Zman – You make some very good points. I didn’t want to turn this thread into another VP-44 thread, just wanted to help others understand that lower (positive) psi readings on the line between the two pumps doesn’t mean that there is damage being done to the Injection Pump. And for those that want to know if their LP is out of spec, 8 psi (anytime) appears to be the lowest reading that is now accepted for a good LP on a stock engine. And unfortunately, the DC Service Manual only mentions reading the pressure at idle (later in the procedure for checking the Lift Pump for no less than 10 psi).



I understand your illustration about the compressor and tool. In that circumstance you are correct. But the tool on the end of the pressure hose is a passive device (like a carburator), driven completely by the air source. Still you are correct about the correlation between psi and volume that happens between two pumps.



You make an excellent point about the degree of the mods that would cause a drop in the pressure. Would someone like to test this? It would be easy! I think it would benefit the members who may be concerned about lightly modifying their trucks.



I would think that even an Edge EZ should be able to drop the psi on the line. Maybe, maybe not. That would be easy enough for anyone to try that has a fuel gauge and an EZ. What we would be interested in seeing is the difference at WOT. Mopar-muscle (and others) have shown that a definitely BOMBed Cummins could draw a stock LP to 0. Anyone want to try this? A couple of runs at WOT with the EZ hooked up, and a couple with it disconnected and the average of the series compared. What do you think? If there is a pressure difference and someone is already seeing 8 psi at WOT with a stock system, I believe an EZ will pull it below 8 psi. What do you think?



Those with a Comp or similar box that can easily be set from mild to wild can input on this too. What is the pressure you see at WOT at the lowest setting vs. the highest (or the next setting – whatever you’re comfortable with). I would do this except I’m sitting at home with a broken leg right now. Any takers? Please post what you find and please have your signature up-to-date so we can sort things out and compare apples to apples.



And Gary is right about the 30 gph. The fuel bypass shunts about 70% of the fuel to the tank. Using that figure equals almost 13 gph at WOT that goes through the high-pressure side in what Mopar-muscle measured. My guess would be that (using a fueling box) with the timing and increased dwell on the pump, that the 70% would shrink a bit. How much? It could be calculated using the BSFC of the 5. 9 and using different HP values to calculate the fuel used for anyone that cared to know.
 
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I believe all lift pumps when new should put out like 15 or 16 psi at idle. This is what I've observed in the last 2 lift pumps after replacing them. The pressure will gradually start to decrease to like 10 psi at idle and after about a month it failed. I've got 13 psi at idle and I'm getting ready to add a pusher pump.



Charles
 
The VP44 on my 5 speed, 1998 ETC engine in stock form burns 0. 393 lb/BHP-HR at 3200 RPM (TDR issue 29, pp 48) and is making 225 BHP. Multiplying 0. 393 x 225 = 88. 43 lb/HR of fuel burned. Diesel at 7 lbs / gallon, is 12. 63 gallons per hour when making this BHP. The fuel flow back to the tank is 30 gph (thanks Mopar-Muscle) for a total of 42. 63 gallons per hour required by the lift pump. The Carter lift pump delivers 60 gallons per hour at 8. 5 psi and 40 gallons per hour at 12 psi. These numbers are what I have measured from a good lift pump. Someone wrote that the filter assembly will only allow about 45 gph flow, enough for a stock engine but not enough if you bomb.



Now if you do add horsepower by bombing, you will need an extra 5. 61-gallons per hour for each 100 BHP. The efficiency of the ISB will not remain constant as BHP is increased. Instead of the calculated value of 5. 61 gallons per hour for each 100 BHP added, a safer number might be 10 gallons per hour.



Using 10 gph per 100 BHP, to make 300 BHP the lift pump and lines, fittings, and filter the lift pump should supply 50 gph. At 350 BHP you need 56 gph and at 400 BHP you will need a lift pump that supplies 61 gph.



But then again I could be all wrong. :)
 
Thanks for the post Dave - that was great. I was wondering about the fuel filter too and thought it was 45 gph but couldn't find any reference to that fact. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Carter at 0 psi should supply 100 gph (i. e. into a bucket). Thanks again for the excellent info.
 
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Zman, you stated in your post that you could get a pressure reading of 7-12 even with a dead lift pump because the VP44 would pull enough fuel to get a reading. I would think that if the 44 is pulling the fuel you shouldn't get a positive pressure reading on your gauge but rather you would be drawing a vacuum. Am I all wet.
 
I measured the flow rate of the lift pump at 82 gph flowing into a bucket at 12 volts, and 95 gph at 14 volts.



Hope this helps.
 
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