New PacBrake's for 03's

[jelag]

Oo.



I have received our first PacBrake Exhaust brake for the 03's with a stick shift..... The PacBrake Part number is C14030..... with this first unit which is sold, we have set our selling price at $ 895. 00 which I assume from watching this board is lower than the other competive exhaust brakes... ... This price includes a 10% discout to TDR members.....



I can only assume that my stock order is just around the corner after the first of the year... ... .



The housing is much larger than I expected which accounts for the increased flow required for the higher HP of this new engine design... . It is a direct mount design for mounting direct to the Turbo like the previous models... ...



The exhaust brake is powered by an air compressor which supplies air to an 1 1/2" air cylinder... . this system is the same air compressor and related parts that is used on some of the Cat and IH engines that have exhaust brakes available for them... . Because of the larger cylinder and valve the compressor is larger as well... ... The compressor is designed to mount to the firewall in holes that are pre-existing... .



It wires into the ECM and will be contolled by the ECM..... It also uses a clutch interlock switch so that the exhaust brake turns off during clutch operation... .....



An optional gear shift lever switch is available which carries a part number of C18042 for the 16. 5MM diameter gear shift lever.....



In addition to the new exhaust brake, PacBrake has introduced a new Lube for all exhaust brakes... ... Its a Synthetic Lube for maintenance of the valve and moving parts where the exhaust brake is left off part of the season or for RV or Motorhome use where the vehicle sits for extended periods of time..... It carries a part number of C18037 and is suggested for any exhaust brake... .



If you have any questions please let me know... .



Have a great day... .

 

[Task125]

well I guess in time we will see who has the better system,air pump on PAC brake or vacuum pump on dodge dealer brake.

 

[DBVZ]

Side benefit? Can you connect that air pump to a small tank, so you can air up tires? Sometimes it helps off road to reduce tire pressure, but then you need to air up again when you get back to pavement.

 

[Roger rodbolt]

Originally posted by Task125

well I guess in time we will see who has the better system,air pump on PAC brake or vacuum pump on dodge dealer brake.

Task125,

I researched the e-brakes for a couple of customers. The Dodge e-brake is around 3. 5" at the outlet less the area taken by the shaft and valve. The ISBe's are running high egts (stock hp) which leads me to believe the Dodge e-brake is too restrictive. The Pac Brake is a full 4", Piers has had them in stock for sometime (good price!) and the Pac 4" remote mount should be out in mid January for those that may switch turbos. I've used the 4" remote mount BD brake with good results on pre2003 trucks and BD has an air operated kit for the 2003. If I remember correctly the BD brake measures 4. 25". The pre2003 Dodge/Cummins/Jacobs e--brake was designed for the 160hp engine and was much too restrictive for our higher hp ISB's. HTH's, Larry

 

[Elk]

Welcome to the forum jelag. I will be looking you up soon. It is great to see someone from our area offering discounts to TDR members.

 

[Casey Balvert]

Jelag,



Is there any noice noticeable inside the cab from the compressor mounted to the firewall? Also will the ECM automatically activate the Pacbrake if speed goes up when going downhill with the cruise control on?



Casey

 

[jelag]

The air compressor is rubber mounted and doesn't seem to be noticed in the cab..... If some of you have the Firestone air bags that have an air compressor to run them... ... . That is about the size of this compressor... ... It has its own pressure control circuit and can come on or go off based on system needs... . one thought for me is a set of air horns, all that would be needed is a small tank and solenoid controls..... or like mentioned about the ability to fill a tire... ...



The exhaust brake controls connect to the ECM..... The ECM has a port that is to enable an exhaust brake at the correct time... It looks at the cruise control and the engine speed... . When you take your foot off the throttle the computer lets 3 seconds go by and turns on the exhaust brake..... I currently have several trucks in our fleet and the system on my 01 3500 is the best so far... ... you can shift and the exhaust brake won't come on..... because your shift is within the 3 second window..... in town you learn to just touch the throttle and the brake stays off and you coast..... release the light pressure and the brake comes on..... or if you don't care to run the exhaust brake you can flip the switch and turn it off... ... I leave mine on all the time... ...



To cover Casey's question, with the cruise set, the ECM will not turn on the exhaust brake going down a grade... . Cummins could right that into the software... .....



On my 3500 I've had a trailer on the back that weighs in at over 20 K and at that load I'm just at the limit of the PacBrake and having to use my service brakes.....



I think I've answered the questions so far.....



Have a great day... .

 

[Casey Balvert]

How is overpressure prevented when braking? If the pressure was to be exceeded what are the consequences to the motor? Will the exhaust brake manufacturer cover damage due to overpressure? If overpressure is a possibility due to an exhaust brake malfunction, then choosing the Mopar brake would result in the least warrantee issues as the Jacobs warrantee specifically includes damage to the Cummins engine. Is it even an issue? Perhaps it just never happens. Anyone ever heard of engine damage due to exhaust brake failure?



What are the advantages or disadvantages of the compressed air and vacuum activation? Has the Cummins belt driven vacuum pump been used on other applications?



I know that is a lot of questions, but it will help with my decision as to which brake to put on my truck. It is not too late to cancel my order the Jacobs unit if the Pacbrake has no disadvantages and is several hundred dollars less. What do the people who have used both think?



Casey

 

[Roger rodbolt]

Originally posted by CBalvert

[

What are the advantages or disadvantages of the compressed air and vacuum activation? Has the Cummins belt driven vacuum pump been used on other applications?



I know that is a lot of questions, but it will help with my decision as to which brake to put on my truck. It is not too late to cancel my order the Jacobs unit if the Pacbrake has no disadvantages and is several hundred dollars less. What do the people who have used both think?



Casey,

The advantage goes to compressed air, motorhomes with air brakes favor air operated e-brakes. An air cylinder is typically smaller then a vacumn servo and should be more reliable. It's not diffucult to control airpressure with switches, I've had good experience with dc pressure systems for air bags and air lockers. I see no reason to pay extra $'s for a vacumn system on the Mopar brake when you can have air on the Pac or BD brake.



The biggest reason not to buy the Mopar brake is the small exhaust outlet IMHO. Larry

 

[Dean Upson]

T

To cover Casey's question, with the cruise set, the ECM will not turn on the exhaust brake going down a grade... . Cummins could right that into the software... .....

here is an additonal feature of the Cummins/Jacobs exhaust brake that is new for '03 and hasn't been mentioned. Since it is controlled by the ECM (engine control module), the exhaust brake interacts with the ECM-controlled cruise control. If you top a hill with the curise set to 65 mph and start to speed-up when going down the hill, the brake will cycle on and off to try to keep vehicle speed between approximately 65 and 68 mph.



Keep in mind, the brake switch has to be in the ON position! Also, it may be necessary to downshift if you're pulling a heavy load. As Dean stated, the higher the engine speed, the more the braking horsepower.





__________________

Carlton Bale

Cummins Exhaust Brake Development / Engineering







Dean

 

[jelag]

I mentioned on another post that I personally think the air compressor is the way to go... . PacBrake has used it on its larger exhaust brakes in the 4" and 5" in line systems on Cat, Detroit, Cummins etc... . That technoloy has worked well for them... ... 100 psi will snap the valve open and hold it there... once the valve shuts off the air is dumped with a special dump valve in the circuit and spring pressure returns the valve to the full open position..... the air cylinder is only 1 1/2" in diameter..... and if you use simple math you can compute the amount of pressure to hold the valve closed... . the vacuum design relys on vacuum to hold the valve in both positions.....



The engineers use a dyno and a new engine to test the pressure that will float the exhaust valve..... If some of you remember that there was a optional HD exhaust valve spring on the early engines... The stock exhaust brake with stock valve springs had about 35 psi of back pressure... . with the HD springs it's back pressure was 60 psi. . If you purchased the springs from PacBrake you got Cummins springs that were designed for the 5. 9 engine when it was used in something other than a dodge pickup... The port in front of the valve can be used for EGT sensor but it's there so that the people in the field can test the valves without removing them from the vehicle..... we use some gauges and a test drive to test the effectiveness of the valve at installation, and during service if its needed.....



I hope that you can see that if the valve is not calibrated right that excessive back pressure will float the exhaust valve's and one of them opening at the wrong time would have some dread full effects.....



Without the test port I don't know how you would test the valve itself.....



We often see customers that think they are having problems..... most of these are on large motorhomes that are using the Cummins 8. 4 engine... . Most body builders install exhaust brakes because most of these large coaches have brakes that are right on the edge..... but often don't teach the people who drive them the correct operation..... we will get them in the shop after 4-5 trips back to the selling dealer... they call PacBrake and are referred to us if we are close to them... . We first test the brake to make sure its works the way it's desgned and than train the owners in the correct operation.....



Its not uncommon to see customers who let there rigs sit, or leave the exhaust brake off 80% of the time with carbon problems... PacBrake has started using a new treatment for the complete elbow that will prevent the rust build up..... and also offers a special high temp lube... ... I personally own several trucks with over 250K and the exhaust brake has never been off the truck and its used every day... . I had a 93 Dodge that I sold a couple of years ago that had 375K... .



We often go 70 - 80 K on brakes and were pulling trailers that are always 15 to 20 K.....



I hope that this has answered some of your questions and I haven't gotten off the subject too much... .

 

[jelag]

My last post didn't have my signature even though the box was checked... ...



Jim / Pacific Clutch & Brake / a PacBrake distributor, we've been installing Jake Brake's and now PacBrake for 25 years... .

 

[DBVZ]

The last post on the PAC Brake was very informative. Thanks. I have four more questions:



1. Are you (or anyone) working with DC on getting the PAC approved for use with the 48re automatic? I understood some testing is planned for the Jacobs Brake. Are you aware of anything on that?



2. What is the total parts cost for the PAC?



3. What is the total install time?



4. What is the total estimated cost installed?



Thanks.

 

[jelag]

Please remember that I'm a distributor of PacBrake and these words are mine and don't reflect the policies of them... ...



<snip>

1. Are you (or anyone) working with DC on getting the PAC approved for use with the 48re automatic? I understood some testing is planned for the Jacobs Brake. Are you aware of anything on that?

<snip>



PacBrake has a great working relationship with Navstar and get's inside information... ... I personally don't know what the relationship of PacBrake to DC is... . so on this question I don't know the answer... ... but I'll try and do some research and get back to the forum..... I know that they have a well respected name in engine brake industry... ... they moved to the exhaust brake business when they saw the need..... I personally look at the PacBrake for the working truck..... They have stayed out of the performance areas..... lord knows we've asked them to jump in... ...



<snip>

2. What is the total parts cost for the PAC?

<snip>



We have just seen the cost of the C140030 exhaust brake, and to be honest there is still could be some movement on PacBrake once they get into full production, which I understand is going on right now..... We've set a sell price to those members of this board at $895. 00... . Please remember I'm a distributor of their's and each of us has the ability to set his or her's own price... . This is a complete package..... with air compressor, etc... .



I have my first C140030 brake in the building and its committed to Dave Smith... . I have an appointment with them today to deliver it... ... because of their volume I can't share with you their cost, nor do I have any idea what their going to sell it for.....



I've had my opening stock order in for several weeks..... One of the nice things about PacBrake is that they work to get the kits fully functional before the release..... they have worked out most of the bugs... ... they (PacBrake) have installed several at this point... ..... as with all new product roll outs I don't know if I'm going to get all my first order right away..... PacBrake has been closed through part of the holidays..... so next week will tell the story.....



<snip>

3. What is the total install time?

<snip>



We have yet to do one..... however it looks about the same as a 4" in-line brake used on some Cats, I'm guessing that my tech's will do the first one in 5 hours and their time will come down from that... . Its straight forward and I've read through the instructions a few times already..... The wiring harness has the connector end's installed so that all that you have to do is plug it into the correct port's on the ECM..... no major tools are requred like some of the other exhaust brakes... . I think that the average guy could do one on a Saturday with excellent results.....



<snip>

4. What is the total estimated cost installed?

<snip>



We're in a part of the country where we don't have a lot of overhead... . our labor rate is around $50. 00 and hour and were going to charge $ 250. 00 for installation..... The Chev Duramax and some of the other in-line exhaust brakes need exhaust modifications that require cutting and welding of pipe and their rates are higher... ...



So if you take the 895 of the kit and 250 labor you have about $1145. 00..... the only option I'm going to suggest is the gear shift lever switch which is on backorder as we speak... . I personally like it much better than the switch under the dash..... Its made out of billet material and is designed to attach to the end of the gear shift lever... ..... I'm a big guy and have hit the dash switch with my knee...





This is new to me..... however I mentioned in an earlier post that this was doable with ECM software.....

<snip>

here is an additonal feature of the Cummins/Jacobs exhaust brake that is new for '03 and hasn't been mentioned. Since it is controlled by the ECM (engine control module), the exhaust brake interacts with the ECM-controlled cruise control. If you top a hill with the curise set to 65 mph and start to speed-up when going down the hill, the brake will cycle on and off to try to keep vehicle speed between approximately 65 and 68 mph.

<snip>



Thank you Carlton, I didn't know that this had been done..... we learn something every day... ... since the PacBrake connects to the ECM I would expect the same from PacBrake...



This is new to me..... however I mentioned in an earlier post that this was doable with software.....

Since my last several posts didn't carry my signature even though the correct box is checked... .....



Jim / Pacific Clutch & Brake / a PacBrake Distributor ... .....

 

[DBVZ]

Very good information, Jim. Less expensive than the Jacobs, and it sounds like the install is simpler. Any comment on putting in an air tank connected to the onboard compressor? What pressure does the compressor produce? Enough for tires? It would certainly be enough for air horns.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

jelag - your signature will only show up on your first post on a screen, after that it won't show up. The reason for that is to save bandwidth and reduce redundancy. If someone wants to see your signature they can just scroll up to your first post on that screen. Also, please review the forum guidelines as they relate to vendors. Posting prices on the forums is not allowed by vendors.



-Steve St. Laurent

Webmaster

 

[TBOB]

PAC BRAKE

FOR THE GEAR SHIFT SWITCH I USE A REAR END 2 SPEED SWITCH FROM NAPA, ABOUT $12, INSTALLED WITH 2 ADEL CLAMPS. TBOB