Next time you take a flight ... keep an eye out

[FATCAT]

Heard about this story on the radio, then went to the website to read it for my self. Interesting reading.



I'm suprised that people on the plane didn't jump up and beat these savages to a pulp since it's a post-911 world.

 

[jwdeeming]

Wow. Only four days before this happened, my family connected to an international flight in Detroit, also on Northwest Airlines. No incidents, but I can assure you I did not sleep all the way to Amsterdam, and I am unashamed to admit I racially profiled everyone who used the lavatories forward of my seat...



I too am stunned that there was not a passenger uprising on the flight in this article. One would have to have been there to know for sure, but based on her description I could not have stayed in my seat, particularly with one clown hanging around the front of the aircraft. Post 9-11, I find the inaction of the flight attendants and passengers on that flight inexcusable.



I wonder how accurate this account is? The idea that Air Marshalls were on board but didn't act because there was no incident in progress puzzles me. Multiple middle-easterners getting up at the same time to go to the bathroom is darn sure gonna be an incident on any flight I'm ever on.

 

[c-hawk]

Unbelievable.



It disgusts me that people would rather sit there and do nothing, then chance offending someone, or being called a racist. IF that story is accurate, i believe everyone on that plane should have been stomping those guys into the floor. I'm sure i'll get flamed for this by some, but oh well. It's my opinion.



I think that if you wait for terrorists to make the first move, it will probably be too late. I am certain they will continue to hate us and try to kill us. I also believe that they will be creative, and not do the same exact thing they did on 9/11.



Now i am NOT saying that i haven't been on a plane with middle eastern men since 9/11. I have. But they acted normal, and i respected them. Let ANYONE act like that on a plane i'm on, ESPECIALLY middle easterners, and i'm going to have a hard time sitting still. Of course after reading this story, i wonder if i'd be the only one to do anything.



Chris

 

[Boomer II]

Notice how many of them there were, 14, that's a lot of ass to kick, seems like on 9-11 they used about 5 guys per plane. They know we're not going to sit and let it happen next time. I'm all for arming every non middle eastern passenger on every flight.

 

[Jetpilot]

Well I have read the article and decided to post on this... ... So here it goes.



As far as I am concerned many of you are correct we (the USA) are way too concerned over offending people instead of racially profiling! I am NOT saying that any person doesn't have equal rights in this contrite but we should be looking at the trees in the forest not the forest as a whole when looking for the problem. Profiling doesn't mean we have to abuse or deny rights to someone but it does allow us to concentrate our efforts where they do the most good.



After reading the article it seems like pretty normal reporting, the facts are there but only one side of the story is being shown. I can assure all of you that there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes in this industry to protect you our most valued asset and me as an employee. None of this information is shown because it would detract from the article or would divulge some of the security measures in place in the airline business.



I cannot divulge the process that goes into screening passengers or specific things people are checked but I can assure you that the process is good and getting better every day. The flight crew did the right thing because nothing wrong was happening other than middle eastern men were on the plane and a reporter got worried. I can assure you that as soon as a report of a problem in the cabin is given to the pilots that they used all available resources to ensure everything was OK, and the amount of info available to us is mindboggling! The one thing that the flight attendant did that was wrong was to let the reporter know that there were air marshal's on the flight. This info is not "nice to know information" because someone is scared! The safety of the flight may be dependant on these guys being anonymous, and should not have been shared.



As a pilot that flies for a major airline I personally WANT all of my passengers looking around and profiling everyone in the cabin for potential problems and if they have a concern to please advise one of the flight crew members. But I do NOT want any one of them to act on their suspicions unless ask by a flight crew member or the flight is in known jeopardy. To do so would put everyone on the plane at risk. Trust me when I say if your help is needed or warranted you will know, but until then the best action you can take is to stay seated and be my eyes and ears.



I know that this may not make any of you feel any better but I hope it helps you understand that there is a LOT more to this story than what you read.



Here is some food for thought... .....



In an average year approximately 200 people are killed in the USA in aviation accidents with the vast majority of the fatalities being on private aircraft not airliners.



Now over 40,000 people die annually on our highways.



But did you know that the doctors in this country killed over 90,000 people last year due to mistakes they made????



Doug

 

[Bertram65]

Thanks for the info you could provide Jetpilot.

Couple things about the article, It is a one sided story but from it it sounds like the 14 people were acting very strangely, if passengers tried to stop them I doubt they would be charged. I hope I would never find myself having to make the decision to confront someone or a group of people on a plane, but if I did I am confident if I was the first one there would be plenty of others willing to join in and help. I bet on that flight in the story if one person had confronted them they would have been 20 others right there to put them back in thier seats or do whatever it took to stop them. People might have gotten hurt but they use our complacence to thier advantage, fron the story it sounds like if there were air marshalls on the flight and they were waiting for something to happen before they acted it probably would have been too late.

 

[Jetpilot]

Bertram65



I understand your point but if the passengers had tried to stop them and the flight crew members had not asked for assistance or the flight was not in jeopardy I can assure you that they would be charged. This is a very serious matter for the airline industry and not only is it dangerous for everyone on the plane it is also very costly if a plane has to make an unscheduled landing.



I know that you feel that this would be better than the alternative of losing a plane full of people and you are correct. But just as in this case almost all instances like this of problems on an airplane are nothing events and to turn a perceived problem into a real problem where someone is hurt or killed would be a travesty in itself.



Flight crews are trained to deal with problems that arise on planes, some pilots are armed, and there is the Federal Air Marshall program in place. The airline industry is the safest form of travel in existence. I ask all to please remain vigilant but not be a vigilantly while on an aircraft.



Thanks,



Doug

 

[GFrance]

Really read like a dry run to me. I worry everytime my wife flies somewhere for training, a couple of times a year. Me I haven't been on a plane since 1977 & there is no place I need to go that I need to fly. Flown alot in the service & some afterwards. Liked the convience but hated the experience.

 

[Bertram65]

Jetpilot,

You are right, I am sure if someone had tried stop them they would be charged, but there is no way it would stick.

Based on the account of the story, again one sided, do you think any action by either the flight crew or the sky marshalls was warranted? What about when the seat belt sign came on and they all got up and went to the lavatories?

I see it all the time when I fly, jerks who turn on thier cell phones as the plane is circling to land, is it wrong? yes, does the flight crew stop it? no, I have spoken sharply several times to people who have done this, they shut thier phones off. According to the airlines by them doing this they are putting the plane in danger, does that put my life in danger? yes.

Not to put down flight crews(I am not referring to pilots), but I doubt a 100lb woman is first going to confront a potential problem and second be very effective. I do not know what kind of training they go through but (perhaps wrong) my perception of them is little more than a enhanced waitress who knows some first aid and where the exit doors are.

I remember seeing a Dateline or 60 minute special about some guy on a flight that was high and acting up, several passengers subdued him, and consiquently killed him, in air. They were not charged.

 

[jwdeeming]

Jetpilot,

I appreciate your well-reasoned response, and also respect the limitations on what you can/can't say.

Balancing what you posted with how it feels to be one of the sheep in coach, I still cannot say what I would have done in the situation described in the article.

Personally, 9-11 hammered home the message that being proactive, rather than wait-and-see, could be the difference between a minor incident and a major catastrophy. However, if there were truly an incident underway, it would be a horrible mistake to interfere with the crew's ability to handle it.

So it seems to me, the key is whether or not the situation is under control. I gather from your post that if it were not, it would be obvious. From the article, I think I can make the case that it may - or may not - have been. The simple fact that the flight attendants were freely moving about the cabin and able to talk to passengers should be comforting. However, I cannot understand ANY reason why the level of activity she described by middle-eastern looking men, carrying bags in and out of the lavatories should be allowed. Worst of all, the man in sunglasses who was hovering near the door of the cockpit was apparently never asked to take his seat. Observing this, I would have to wonder if the plane were already "taken" and the attendants were under duress to appear "normal".

I would not advocate tackling middle-eastern looking guys in the isles just because too many of them are standing up. But I think it would have been an interesting test for someone to go stand next to the sunglasses guy by the cockpit. Just stand there. Nothing more. If he had a legitimate reason to be there, (Air Marshall?) then I would be asked to sit down and nothing more. If not, we would both be asked to sit down or not congregate by the door. I bet based on his reaction, I'd know if he belonged there or not.

I suppose if the pilots had any reason to not like the activity going on, they could have easily turned on the seatbelt sign, asked everyone to be seated immediately, and simulated a little turbulence with the joystick...

 

[Jetpilot]

Bertram65



The dateline program you saw was accurate. But this passenger was acting in such a way as to endanger the flight and the flight attendants did ask for help. As you say the normal flight attendant is no match for a trained man, but please remember that a crew members are in charge of the airplane. I can assure you that if a problem arises that needs assistance the flight attendants have the ability (maybe not physically but with other methods including the use of other passengers) to handle it.



As for would a charge stick..... You bet, it does all the time. People are hauled off planes and charged for not following a crew members instructions. They do jail time and/or are fined and prohibited from flying on US airlines.



I do not want this to sound like we may not need your help but rather the fact that we need everyone on the same page. If assistance is warranted I assure you that all will know. A plane full of people is a precious thing, to endanger all by untrained people acting on their own accord could be catastrophic.

 

[Boomer II]

What good are air marshals if they are assembling a bomb? Just quietly go about the business of putting it together then push the button. No muss, no fuss.

 

[Jetpilot]

Boomer II,



There is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes than what the public knows about. Flight crews are trained to deal with people, bombs, and all sorts of other issues that arise. 9-11 opened the eyes of many hence the training techniques and policies are very different today than pre 9-11.



The Air Marshall program is very good now, and to assume that the flight crew was doing nothing to ensure the safety of the passengers is ludicrous. Trust me guys when I tell you if these guys were a real problem help would have been there.



Could a person get the items onto a plane somehow without being detected... ... Yup it probably could be done, but it would be significantly harder than it would have been just 2 or 3 years ago. The screening process all passengers and bags go through now is very rigorous, is it perfect..... no. Hence thats why I said what was said above be vigilant but let the crew members do their jobs and if help is needed please be there to lend it if asked.

 

[Bertram65]

Jetpilot,

Fair enough, but based on the story, do you think any action by either the flight crew or the sky marshalls was warranted?

As far as the charges, we can disagree on that, if someone challanged those guys on the plane thier reason for challenge would be because they feared for thier lives, I doubt you could find a case with similar circumstances where someone was actually charged and prosecuted. I assume the stuff you are referrring to is more like drunk poeple acting up. When you fear for your life there are very few if any laws that apply.

 

[RT66DOC]

Well, I don't think Jetpilot wants to die any more or less than the rest of us (aka "self-loading baggage") sitting in the back. The military comes to mind - need a command structure to get the job done right. I, for one have a large amount of respect for the training, capability and experience of Jetpilot and his colleagues. Anybody ever see a 737 appear out of blowing snow at night over the end of a runway with an RVR of 1500 ft? (CLE in January comes to mind. ) At 130-40 knots, whatever, it's a work of art. I have faith that airline pilots take their security training (whatever that may be) as seriously as their flight proficiency.



Would I die trying to subdue a threat on a plane if it evolved? You bet but, c'mon Gents, it's his airplane.



My only gripe with airline pilots is with the guys who walk down the concourse with their tie pulled down and uniform coat unbuttoned. Actually, I've always thought leather bomber jackets with an open collar ala Steve Canyon and Terry and the Pirates would be a better get up.

 

[Boomer II]

JP, thanks for the info, next time they all jump up at once, just do a nice slow roll, saw it done in a 707, that should shake em up!

 

[FATCAT]

Well, seeing how people are treated getting on flights and what they have to do to get on them (reminds me of the Jews being herded onto railroad cars during WWII), you can have it. One of the many reasons I don't and never will fly in a plane.



At least I can carry my . 45 in my car when I go places.



I don't see why we just don't ban those middle-eastern savages form all US flights period ... heck just round them up and through them out of the US.



I think when the next hijacking occurs or next BIG terror attack happens, I think that there won't be any problems or complaints with profiling these *******s.

 

[Andy Perreault]

Originally posted by Boomer II

just do a nice slow roll, saw it done in a 707

Trivia question: What was the name of the pilot who did that famous move in the prototype 707 over Lake Washington in front of all the Boeing and world airline executives?

 

[jwdeeming]

Tex Johnston?

 

[JoshPeters]

Thanks for the insite Jetpilot. I do not know what all is involved. I personally can't hear after I fly in a plane for about 3 days... I've tried gum, yawning etc. So I drive as much as I can. It is nice to know how much our loved ones are looked after and watched on a flight.



Josh