No oil in filter at oil change?

[DogramTD]

Some of you may remember my oil pressure issue I was having at start-up. Since I installed my manual OP gauge, It has only happened 2x but each time only lasted about 2 seconds.



Building on that issue... I just changed my oil and to my surprise, what is normally a somewhat messy filter change, wasnt so much this time. I thought maybe I just got real good at it and didnt spill a drop... . turns out, when i turned the filter over to empty it, there was only about 2 oz in it as opposed to the normal 12-16 oz or so... WTF?!



Anyone else experience this before?

 

[Lordsman]

If you don't try to change the oil for an hour or so after engine shutdown the pressure will subside, the oil will settle down in the filter, and there is no mess when removing it. The longer you wait, the more it will settle in. This works in all my Dodge trucks.

I also fill my oil filters with new oil before I put them on. I believe this helps in getting oil to the turbo bearing right away instead of running it dry on start up before the filter fills itself up.

How long did you wait after shutdown before removing the filter?

 

[EZeis]

Are you using oil filters that have an anti-drain back valve in them? If you look at the small holes around the center hole you'll see rubber if it's got the valve, no rubber, no valve.





Earl

 

[Dieselnerd]

I changed my oil yesterday and was going to ask the same question. For the first time, my filter was almost empty.



My 1996 Cummins filter was never more than half full when I changed oil but my 2005 filter is normally only down a couple of inches from the top.



I usually only drive a short ways to warm the engine to change oil. Yesterday I had to run an errand so I took the truck to warm it up for the oil change. I went about 8 miles, most at highway speeds so it was fully warmed. I let it sit for about 20 minutes while I changed my clothes and then drained it. The oil came out much faster than usual. My thought was that it drained so fast that it sucked it out of the filter somehow.



I've had no oil pressure problems and the truck runs fine.

 

[Shadrach]

Doesn't sound like you have a problem to me. Shad

 

[steved]

Are you using oil filters that have an anti-drain back valve in them? If you look at the small holes around the center hole you'll see rubber if it's got the valve, no rubber, no valve.





Earl

The OE filters don't have an anti-drainback valve as far as I know...

 

[DogramTD]

I use FG filters... prob waited about 30 min before changing the oil, usually I do it right away after shut down. I found it peculiar as I have never seen this before. GUess I dont understand the drain back theory since there is no draw straw and it sits upright as if it were a cup... it gets siphoned??



If this is normal, I think i will wait 30-45min everytime... no mess!

 

[AH64ID]

If I let my truck sit overnight the filter is about 2/3 full every time I change it.

I can't find anything in the service manual that talks about an internal drain back valve, maybe the ISB uses the elevated position of the filter to prevent the drain back.

I wonder if the suction tube has something in it?

 

[rbattelle]

. GUess I dont understand the drain back theory since there is no draw straw and it sits upright as if it were a cup... it gets siphoned??

Every time I have changed my oil the filter has been completely full up to the top. To the point that if I tilt it even slightly, I get a mess. Doesn't matter if it sits overnight, several days, or just a few minutes after the last shutdown.



This empty filter thing scares me. Since the filter sits upside down, it should collect oil, and I don't really see much opportunity for suction to remove a significant amount during the drain process.



An empty oil filter on startup would explain the low oil pressure on startup rather conveniently.



The question then is why is the filter empty? I would suggest it's empty because it was not filled in the first place, as opposed to having been filled and then later drained.



That would suggest that your oil filter bypass valve is sticking closed. It normally opens with a differential of 50psi. The valve is located somewhere in the filter head or cooler casting, but neither the Cummins manual nor the Dodge manual shows a clear picture or any kind of service instructions!



-Ryan



By the way, you should always fill a new oil filter with oil before installing on these engines. Failure to do so could damage the engine.

 

[AH64ID]

An empty oil filter on startup would explain the low oil pressure on startup rather conveniently.

Not really. I personally don't subscribe to the fill the filter theory (don't like unfiltered oil in my enigne at all) and the pressure builds faster on a 40° day with an empty filter than it does on a cold soaked 0° motor.



There is plenty of oil left on the bearings that the startup isn't dry, not unless the motor is freshly rebuilt or been sitting for many months (I know 2 months sitting starts and builds oil pressure like sitting for a week does).



I have an aux oil psi gauge on the block above the ECM, so it doesn't see pressure until the block does.

 

[rbattelle]

I forget, how long was Collin's oil pressure low on startup? I thought it was just a few seconds - maybe I'm misremembering.

I understand, many people disagree with filling the filter. But Cummins' service procedure specifies that the filter must be filled prior to install.

I pour my new oil through a mesh screen, then into the filter.

-Ryan

 

[AH64ID]

If the check gauges light appears then there has been a < 6 psi condition for 30 seconds.

What about a plugged crankcase filter, could that cause a vacuum in the pan?

As for the fill vs not fill, I know what the manual/service manual states and I usually never take away from OEM procedures. . but I have seen UOA on new oils and they are far dirtier than one would think.

For S&G this next OCI I may fill the filter thru the outside holes (filter flow is outside/in) and see how it effects oil psi on startup vs a dry filter.

 

[NavyDood]

The OE filters don't have an anti-drainback valve as far as I know...

Fleetguard, Amsoil, Donaldson, Fram, Mopar, Baldwin, Motorcraft, WIX and Napa do not have a anti-drain back valve for our filter. Only filters I have personally used are Fleetguard, Amsoil and currently Donaldson Endurance. I always pre-fill through the smaller holes since they are the supply holes and the center is the return to engine.

 

[DogramTD]

What about a plugged crankcase filter, could that cause a vacuum in the pan?

I just ordered a new filter last week from genos, waiting for it to arrive.

I forget, how long was Collin's oil pressure low on startup? I thought it was just a few seconds - maybe I'm misremembering.



I understand, many people disagree with filling the filter. But Cummins' service procedure specifies that the filter must be filled prior to install.



-Ryan

I do fill my filter prior to installing it. On avg, pressure build time is approx 8 secs... when I am not having pressure issues. This seems to have subsided since installing the new OP gauge. Its happened 2x since, first on initial start up after gauge install and recently a couple days ago... which only lasted about 2 secs.

Every time I have changed my oil the filter has been completely full up to the top. To the point that if I tilt it even slightly, I get a mess. Doesn't matter if it sits overnight, several days, or just a few minutes after the last shutdown.



This empty filter thing scares me. Since the filter sits upside down, it should collect oil, and I don't really see much opportunity for suction to remove a significant amount during the drain process.

These were my thoghts and the reason I posted!

 

[Dieselnerd]

Now I'm worried too. I'll have to see if I can locate the bypass valve. Might be sticking open or have a broken spring.

 

[AH64ID]

What do you mean by an upside down filter? The OEM filter on any ISB I have seen isn't upside down.

As for oil pressure building I don't ever take 8 seconds, even when it's been sitting for 2 months, 5 at most.

The bypass valve is going to be located in the oil cooler where it can easily get supply/return pressure from the filter.

 

[DogramTD]

Now I'm worried too. I'll have to see if I can locate the bypass valve. Might be sticking open or have a broken spring.

I dont think yours is different, but the relief valve is in the oil cooler on the 3r

d gen

 

[DogramTD]

What do you mean by an upside down filter? The OEM filter on any ISB I have seen isn't upside down.



As for oil pressure building I don't ever take 8 seconds, even when it's been sitting for 2 months, 5 at most.



The bypass valve is going to be located in the oil cooler where it can easily get supply/return pressure from the filter.

8 secs is avg... sometimes more, sometimes less, but on cold startup its about that. I dont think 2 days or 2 months makes much of a difference except for as you mentioned earlier, the oil film leaving the cyl/bearing surfaces; OP build should be the same either way.



Any votes on changing the oil cooler out to see if that helps? I'd hate to just throw parts at it (actually I dont mind but my bride does) even though the part is only $80; trying to save the dough for a Goerend TC.

 

[tkerrigan]

I've never seen a filter get lower than 1" from the top after usually about two hours. What if some combustion pressure was getting into the oil passages through a soft spot in the head gasket? Can't think of anything else emptying it that much. Maybe there is a check ball on the oil pump that should seat when the oil stops moving and prevent oil from siphoning out?

Tom

 

[AH64ID]

I would talk to Cummins and see if the filter bypass valve is in the cooler, and maybe it can be serviced separately.