Archived No shift, trans torn down 3 times, electrics replaced 3 times. this is long details

[dseabaugh]

This is the ongoing No shift issue of 3 months continuing teardowns and parts replacements in the other thread. today's TPS wires show wrong voltage unplugged. http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-powertrain/1313113-help-long-but-all-details-might-help.html which is also copied below.

This morning I decided to follow JL12valves advice and check the TPS again.
Put i pin in the middle wire ( orange) and got 5 volts at idle and 5 at WOT. I think is should have read 1.5 to about 3 at WOT. I unplugged it and checked the wires.
Black wire 0 as should be it's ground
Orange wire ( center signal I think) 5.04 v
Purple wire 5.09 volts

Here's the deal. 1997 2500 4x4 47RE auto will not shift to O.D. or lock the torque. I've owned it since it was a year old. pretty much stock except torque plate and Jimmy jammers in doors.

Transmission rebuilt under warranty in 1999 @ 70,000
BD V.B installed in 1999

The last 4 years the transmission would shudder under a heavy load unless the throttle was light. No metal in the pan, ever. Always had synthetic oil with regular changes.

Saved up for a new oversize clutch billet torque converter and Kolene kit and finally purchased in Jan. Takes a long time. $434.50 a month SS only goes so far. I should have taken the offer from a couple of you guys who offered to rebuild it for free the year I had 10 surgeries but I was not up to the long drive and years of hard work and pride make charity hard to accept so I didn't.

started not shifting into o.d. in June. 129,000 on the clock. Drove to town for code read. code said output sensor so replaced it. All fine.

Pulled the transmission so I could put the converter and kit in. Needed the core $ bad. Put the rebuild kit in too. Put in another V.B. I had after putting a transgo kit in it. Plus new borg electrics and harness. No shift to 3-O.D. $200 in Amsoil.

Put the BD V.B in . Still the same. Changed the electrics again. No change. Put 100 Ohm resister in B31 wire. No change. Jumped the terminals at the relay so it had 12v all the time on #1 wire on trans plug. still no difference.

Pulled transmission, tore down, new seal kit my stepson bought me since I was out of parts $, found nothing out of order.
BD v.b. installed again with new electrics again. New Trans relay. TPS again. At this point I do not know if any electrics are good and have switched them so many times I have lost track which is which other than the Borg ones are bigger.

Pulled transmission out again and still find nothing wrong. Ordered a VB on ebay and could not install it because the holes were full of dirt. Not going to tear down another VB when it is supposed to be useable. ( still no answer to the request to return for a refund). Put gauges on trans today. No change in trans operation. Gauge test results below.
Nobody has anything in this town any more. Spent 4 hours going place to place trying to find fittings to use my hoses.
Had to buy new hoses and could not get 400 lb hose w/o spending $100 on hydraulic. WTF? I have a hundred feet of hydraulic hose but could get no fittings. Auto Tire and parts had a hose rated at 300# and it would literally swell up in my hand when the pressure would hit 300. The way it swells up, I don't want to know how close the burst pressure is to that. That's why I pulled the truck outside to test.

Here's my tests results. Do not match anything in my trouble shoot book so I have no clue what they mean other than the only thing that is right is 1st and 2nd.

test port pressure rpm pressure with TV valve lever pulled back

Low accumulator 60 1000 110
rear servo 60 1000 110

2nd accumulator 65 1000 92

Drive accumulator 100 1600 100
front Servo -0- 1600 -0-

Reverse Rear servo 300 as soon as put in gear then drops to 100 and stays there 1600 rpm

governor governor in drive -0- all

O.D. O.D. -0-

I need help figuring out what this means. I have literally spent the last 3 months working on this thing plus the last 3 months SS check on seals, electrics, filters, etc. I am to the point if I spend 1 more $, I cannot make next months house payment. Advice would be very helpful. Thanks.

 

[DavidC]

Wow, what a mess. Hopefully cerberusiam will see this and respond. jlandry I believe is pretty sharp on these also. Those 2 guys I believe are your best hope, good luck.

Dave

 

[cerberusiam]

Yikes, should have come here the first time you had problems. Would have saved a lot of $$ and hassle.

OD and lockup are all computer controlled. The TPS contributes to when it shifts but it is far form all. The PCM ultimately determines if lockup and OD happen. The first thing you need to do is verify it is mechanical or electronic issue.

Validate you have 12 volts on one wire in the trans control harness with the key on. There will be one wire that is larger than the others and will be hot all the time with key on. If you cannot find 12 volts you have a problem in the harness somewhere. This is the power for the solenoids for TCC and OD so it must work or all rebuilding will be to no avail.

If you have power to the trans, go to Radio shack and get yourslef 2 switches, single pole single throw simple on and off switches. Get 2 1/2 watt 33 ohm resistors, they usually have them in bulk. A roll of 18 gauge wire. Probbaly a total of $7-10. You wan tto wire these switches into the round trans control plug on the transmission.

IIRC, pine #6 is the OD, pin #7 is the lockup. These are the sense wires the PCM grounds to activate the functions. Tap each wire with a scotch loc and run each wire to a seprate switch. From the other side of the switch wire to the resistor then to a chassis ground. Whne you flip the switch to on you will complete the circuit and activate the solenoids for TCC and OD. If you transmission is good and all the hard parts work they will engage. That tells you if it is mechanical or electronic and if it works you now have your functionality back, albeit manually but it is better than nothing.

All your pressure slook good except reverse. It should go to 300 psi, or thereabouts, and stay. Dropping like that sounds like there is a leak somewhere. Two components engage for reverse, rear servo and direct clutch pack. Either could have a leak that is dropping the pressure. That wil cause some shudder in drive and maybe reverse if that pressure is low, under heavy load it will slip. Neither problem will cause OD or TCC to not engage.

Gov pressure is related to wheel speed so until you get the wheels rolling that pressure will geberally be zero. If you put the truck on jack stands the gov pressure should rouhgly follow wheen speed up to about 60 mph or so.

OD port will show no pressure until the solenoid engages. Wire in the mystery switch and see if it will enagage then test the pressure for accuracy.

Hope this helps get you on the right track.

 

[dseabaugh]

Thanks. This is the first suggestion that tells me something. The 300 lb then drop to 100 makes me think a piston applies then slips too far in the bore. If I had a good VB I would switch out that in case there is an issue in it. so if the electric switches do the job, then where to do I go? An issue I found is with the PCm plug C1 or A unplugged the voltage to the TSP signal are 1.53. As soon as I plug it in, it jumps to 5.09. I put an oh meter on it. No short to hot. Even cut the wire. Something that is hooked to the A black plug tells the computer to jump the volts up. I'll go to town for more parts tomorrow to try your suggestion. I've got about $3 grand in this thing now and 172 hours in time trying to figure it out. Truck has clocked 8 miles in test drives since June and that's it. I really appreciate the help!! d

 

[cerberusiam]

IIRC, the TPS should have 5-6 volts on 1 leg, .75 to 1.5 on another and the 3rd one is ground. As you open the throttle one of the legs should increase voltage smoothly. If you have 2 legs showing 5 volts or more at rest either the TPS is backwards (installed full open), or the PCM has shorted something out.

The pressure drop in reverse does not sound right. If you have good apply pressure on the middle port in Drive then I would guess there is a problem with the rear servo.

The mystery switches should tell you if the TCC and OD circuits are functional and working and indicate if it is a mechanical or electronic issue. It won't help with the reverse problem though.

 

[dseabaugh]

IIRC, the TPS should have 5-6 volts on 1 leg, .75 to 1.5 on another and the 3rd one is ground. As you open the throttle one of the legs should increase voltage smoothly. If you have 2 legs showing 5 volts or more at rest either the TPS is backwards (installed full open), or the PCM has shorted something out.

The pressure drop in reverse does not sound right. If you have good apply pressure on the middle port in Drive then I would guess there is a problem with the rear servo.

The mystery switches should tell you if the TCC and OD circuits are functional and working and indicate if it is a mechanical or electronic issue. It won't help with the reverse problem though.

With the TPS unplugged, the voltage on the signal wire still jumps to 5.09 when you plug the A plug into the computer.
If you unplug the billion pin connector and check the voltage on the computer pins it is 1.53
Have checked for short to hot on the wires to the TPS. Ohmeter says no short.
Got a ride to town for resisters and toggle switch. Will let you know what i find after I get back.
Thanks d

 

[dseabaugh]

parts were cheap like you said. $9.15. soldered everything together and it looked so nice I thought they should name a monument or park after me.:--) Crawled under to check number 1 plug and nothing. Seems I left the key on all night and ran the batteries dead. Charged them, then v/o meter died. Another trip to town for a fuse for it. Then NO voltage on #1 trans plug. ASTG book says the plug must be plugged in to check # volts so I do that. Still Nadda. Put in a new trans relay, nothing. There are 4 wires on the trans relay.

Pulled apart relay box and with key on or off there is only power on the big red wire w/ white strip. + supply,

White wire with blue stripe has nothing. diagram says it is Alt output from C25 terminal @ PCM

Pink wire says B30 PCM to trans relay control.

Red wire says to trans plug # 1

Any way to rig this around the PCM or should I look for a signal wire from the key switch to the PCM somewhere? PCM turned to dust? an alternator signal to relay problem or does it have to be running?

thanks

 

[SnoKing]

Put a jumper in place of relay contact. Radio Shack sells a one to two adapter that will plug right in inplace of the relay. DTT removes the relay and uses the jumper. This will allow you to continue testing the shifting. Then you trace back to why the relay is not picking. Snoking

 

[dseabaugh]

Put a jumper in place of relay contact. Radio Shack sells a one to two adapter that will plug right in inplace of the relay. DTT removes the relay and uses the jumper. This will allow you to continue testing the shifting. Then you trace back to why the relay is not picking. Snoking

So the other 2 wires are not needed?
Thanks.
d

 

[SnoKing]

You have the 12v connector and one parallel/across from it that goes to the transmission. The other two at a right angle pull the relay when installed.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yes, jump the relay to get power to the trans harness. The other 2 wires are to activate the rrelay to pass power to the trans. That is controlled by the PCM so when it senses problems it puts the trans into limp mode by shutting down power to all the controls.

 

[SnoKing]

Yes, jump the relay to get power to the trans harness. The other 2 wires are to activate the rrelay to pass power to the trans. That is controlled by the PCM so when it senses problems it puts the trans into limp mode by shutting down power to all the controls.

That brings up and interesting question. DTT removes the relay and installs a jumper so there is always power to the transmission, to prevent the codes they set from putting transmission in limp mode. It might be better to have a relay and have it controlled by a run circuit from the key. Because of a PCM output circuit issue with my overdrive lead, I put a relay in that lead near my DTT smart controller. The PCM circuit does not go completely back to float(stays a 10.7V) and the OD solenoid stays picked. I was draining the batteries while parked. I will have to think about moving that relay to the power center under the hood kill all the power to the transmission when the truck sets.

I ran a manual toggle switch for OD lock out for many years until I installed a series of diodes in the lead to make up the voltage difference and have the OD button working again.

Sorry for the minor hijack, but it is still related to the 12Vs to the transmission for the OD and TC lockup solenoids!

SNOKING

 

[cerberusiam]

Yeah, jumping that realy was just fine until there was a short in the trans control harness from a bare wire or pinching the harness. Then the smoke got let out of places it should stay put.

If the PCM keeps some circuits live, relying on the key to power off the apply circuits, that will cause some excess drain on batteries.

As a test for the OP it should be fine unless there is a shorted wire in the harness or the PCM is tango uniform.

 

[dseabaugh]

I jumped the relay. I had done that over a week ago but w/o the mistery switches. hooked in switches. 1/2/3 Hard to tell, seems like I am short ag gear does not shift till around 2700 rpm which is way high for the last 15 years I've had the truck. with the switches on it drives nice but at 50 mph I am still running 1800 rpms. i really do not feel much if any difference turning on the overdrive switch. TQ definitely . One improvement for sure is that in 1,2, rev I cannot hold the truck back with the service brakes any more on the stall test. Which is a big improvement. It's been 9 months since I went on a highway trip and memory is not very good any more but seems to me that 75 mph was always around 2000 rpms. 3.54 gears and 265/70/17 goodyear wrangler pro series tires. When I drive down our road trying to hold a steady 40 mph something seems goofy. You can hear and I am near deaf, but still hear and see on the tach that the engine flares back and forth about 200 rpms. 40 mph back and forth 1200-1400 rpms. Reminds me of when the TPS went wonky in 2001 and it would downshift on every hill traveling 45 mph but not as big of an rpm change. going to to try to make a trip to Illinois this afternoon and pick up one of my trailers a guy has not returned in months ( ticked off here) and see what happens. If I can at least pick up the trailer and all my cargo equip and get them home, then back to figuring this out more. Thanks. Suggestions still appreciated. d

 

[cerberusiam]

Sounds like OD is MIA. You should see and feel a big drop in engine rpm when OD engages and another drop when the TC locks up. Only way to tell if OD is engaging is a gauge on the OD circuit and monitor the pressures, that will tell you if the solenoid is working and the fluid being routed to it. If you have good pressure and it holds, and you don't see the rpms drop and\or speed jump the OD cluthc pack is failing to engage.

The shifting at 2700 is probably the lack of gov pressure, that is the usual sequence when that doesn't work right. That could be because the PCM is hosed, or, the transducer that reads the pressure is bad and the PCM is not sending the correct signal to the gov solenoid. Again, on jacks stand you can watch the gove pressure and it should rise evenly about 1 psi for every mph of wheel speed.

 

[dseabaugh]

so here's the deal Went to get my stuff. Trailer is all I got. Guys car was there but nobody would answer the bell but the dogs so trailer is all I came home with.
About 7 miles into the trip it started shifting the hydraulic gears at 2100. That's closer to normal. 45 mph was 1300 rpms, 50 was 1600, 75 was 2100. All probably normal. Slowing down to 20 or 30 for slow curves certainly lets you know you need to down shift ( shut of the d@#n switch) I need to find a wire that is key to hot/off to wire a relay so I don't have to pull the jumper wire to keep batteries from draining when parked. You'd think after 42 years shifting 4-15 gears I would get used to shifting. i learned that at the first stop light and again learned think fast when the fool woman slammed on her brakes to stop at the interstate on ramp. Works just like a gear shift when you forget to clutch for a stop. Switches are comfortable to use at the end of the armrest. Put 23 miles on it and it gets better all the time. Is it possible the steel piston rings and all the teflon and rubber seals were so tight this thing has been air locked or pistons too tight to move easily? Torque converter drainback is real bad yet. shutting off engine long enough to unhook a trailer you have to fill converter again on restart to get it moving.
Thanks for everyone's help. Thank you very very much. Hopefully I can figure out the issue and get it right. I think a new rebuilt computer is in order as soon as I can save up $250 for one.
d

 

[cerberusiam]

No on the seals and sealing rings, they either work right the first time or something is wrong. You should not have that kind of problem with converter drain back. If it is acutally draining back that fast there is a leak somewhere that s letting air in and causing that, probably causing the other issues with OD and the reverse pressure also.

 

[dseabaugh]

I'll check it again tomorrow.
Thanks
d

 

[dseabaugh]

Drainback has always been there parking over night the last 15 years with the BD vb but now all you have to do is shut it down for 5 minutes. probably need to drop the oil and readjust bands after a little run in?
d

 

[cerberusiam]

Bands have nothing to do with drian back in the TC. The VB should have been modified to circulate fluid in park so drain should not ever be an issue if you wait at least 30 seconds to put it in gear, and that is on a worn trans. If everything is clearanced and tight in a new build it should not be an issue. I you have to wait for engagement when warm there is a problem somewhere, likely a leak in the case or servos or something that is causing that to happen.