NV 4500 - GM versus Dodge

[DogDiesel]

I have a NV4500 behind my 5. 9 Cummins in my '93 Chevy pickup.



I originally installed it myself (it was GM style then) but had it replaced in Nevada. But the shifter is now not a GM style. It previously had the round GM shifter housing , now it has the Dodge style shifter, which has four screws that holds the cover on.



Here is my question.



What are all the differences between the GM and Dodge style NV4500?



Wayne

 

[PKirby]

The top picture is the later style bolt on shifter and the bottom picture is the early style. GM and Dodge both changed to the bolt on style to improve shifting. Dodge and GM used different shifter studs that the handles attach to. GM had 2 different low gear ratios depending on the year. Dodge also had a HD version with a larger input shaft used behind the Cummins and V10. Output shafts and tail housings are different between GM and Dodge but can be swapped between the two.



Below is a link that explains it better.





http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv4500.htm

 

[DogDiesel]

THANKS, more questions

Thanks,

On the GM website, it was said the only difference between NV4000s is input shaft is larger and longer on Dodge, and yes, the shifter styles.



The XMSSN builder made me doubt what I thought I had learned and knew, because he said the Dodge NV4500 has larger internal gears, and is is just so much more durable. Yes, I understand larger input shaft can take more HP and Torque, but he said the internal gears are not the same.



I have not rebuilt, or done a side by side comparison.



I am beginning to wonder whether I have a bullet-proof 5 speed or a problem that will come again.



I have nearly 200K, lost my first Nv4500 with 80K in a 300HP 6. 5 TDA, my second with the 5. 9L TDA Cummins, and simply cannot afford the third. I did the first and the cost was reasonable. I got caught in Nevada with my pants down around my ankles and lacked shop space and resources and paid dearly.



I am considering the 6 speed conversion, as it would have been cheaper than my Nevada ankle waddle.



I would like to know more of what the int4rnal differences are. Fact compared to what I think is Bull-crap.



Wayne

 

[DogDiesel]

I believe I found the Answer - Very Very long

Using High Impact Transmissions website: http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv4500.htm#What is involved



On 96 and later GM transmissions, both Dodge and GM are the same type shifter and same otherwise except input shaft size and length. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Wayne

I quote:

"Swapping input shafts: In some conversions, a Dodge input shaft is used in a GM trans, or vice versa. When we supply the trans, it will come with the correct input shaft in it for the application. If you already have the trans, and need to change the input shaft, this is easily done from the front of the unit and Does NOT require major disassembly of the trans. It is recommended to check main shaft end play after the swap, incorrect endplay can cause premature trans failure. To check end play, use a magnetic base dial indicator, zero it in on the rear of the trans main (output) shaft. use a small pry-bar or screwdriver to move the mainshaft in and out of the trans, reading play on the dial indicator. Should be . 002-. 006:...

... Beginning in 95’, all GM units were built with the same gear ratios as the Dodge unit... "



GM 93-94 only First Gear 6. 34

Second Gear 3. 44

Third Gear 1. 71

Fourth Gear 1. 00

Fifth Gear 0. 73

Reverse 6. 34



ALL Otherwise:95/up GM; 93/up Dodge

First Gear 5. 61

Second Gear 3. 04

Third Gear 1. 67

Fourth Gear 1. 00

Fifth Gear 0. 73

Reverse 5. 61







Specifications

Dry weight: 195 lbs.

Oil capacity: 1 gallon

Rated GVW: 14,500 lbs.

Case material: cast iron

Synchronizers: Carbon fiber composite

Main/Counter shaft bearings: Timken tapered roller







Bellhousing Bolt Pattern:

GM 1993-1995 10. 078 across the top, 10. 394 across the bottom, 4. 685 vertically



GM 1996 + up 10. 078 across the top, 9. 738 across the bottom, 6. 043 vertically



Dodge (All) 10. 078 across the top, 9. 738 across the bottom, 6. 043 vertically



Note they are all the same after 96.



Based on this website, the fellow in Nevada was talking BS.

Same transmission, short of Input shaft ater 95.



I was concerned that I just do not have enough transmission.

While, it would be sexy to have a 6 speed in my Chevy truck, with a 5. 9L Cummins, there is little gained to go to a Dodge NV4500. Perhaps I should change my truck to a Dodge flywheel and larger 13". clutch?

I had this conversation with Carolina clutch when I bought my LUK kit. Unless I was pulling sleds and routinely "dumped the clutch" at full throttle, it is doubtfull I could break the input shaft. Ironically, also I was told that unless I upgraded to the 13" plus Dodge Cummins clutch, I had more clutch with the 12" GM flat-face style LUK than with the 12. 5" Dodge variant (even a LUK). These smaller units faced slippage while the smaller GM would hold. Keep your money. I do not know. I have pulled to twice the GVRW and no clutch slippage and I tow alot. At 80K, my LUK clutch look like the replacement other than coloring. Held up good. More than I can say about the NV4500.



At each of my two failures, fluid level is perfect. The first one I lost all but 4th gear. The second, I lost all gears. Just cleaned the teeth off the gears. Failure occurred both times in 5th at 62-64 (1875) on cruise with load on 4:10 gears. Heat? Yes, likely.



I have ordered the NV5600 Fast Coolers from Geno's. Sent back the NV4500 Fast coolers because they will not work on the left side of a Chevy conversion, it hits the drive shaft.



I sorta got told some BS by an eggsspert in Nevada.

Have I sufficiently stirred the pot?



Wayne

 

[MMeier]

Just curious, what type of fluid were you running ? Where in NV did you get "the treatment"?

 

[DogDiesel]

I am using GL-4 synthetic, as per requirement.

I had pulled the I-80 Sierras, and stayed overnight at the rest-stop where in 1848 the entire wagon train had perished, along with animals. I was tooling up the road, the next AM about 8-10 minutes, just 10 miles west of Lovelock, NV, telling my wife the historical tragic tale of this wagon train, when...

cruise rev'ed slightly and went off. I had no transmission. Coasted to a spot with my load. My wife thought it ironic that I had just got to the part where I retold the numbers died, then number of animals that perished, millions lost and oooops no transmission.



Reno was the repair shop. The transmission was built by a fellow in Carson City (the BS'er).

Wayne

 

[stacerbob]

There was an article in one of the 4x4 mags ( 4 wheel or Four Wheeler?) that combined the low first with the low reverse & the higher2nd & 3rd. Was interesting but don't know if it would be worth the trouble??

 

[Lightman]

The output shaft and tail housings are also different between dodge and chevy on the 4wd for sure. Dont know about the 2wd.

 

[DogDiesel]

BS'er built bad NV4500-As said - the TREATMENT

I didn't really tell the whole Nevada failure story.



My failure occured on a Monday in the middlle of that Nevada '40-mile desert'. That afternoon it was in the shop. Took all week to get it repaired, and I picked it up Saturday at 5:30 PM. I told them then that the synchronizers in 3rd were bad, they argued they were OK, but I figured another week stuck there, the heck with it. I headed east. My trip was ordinary, no more saga.



Stopped in Aberdeen MD, and began hunting for a transmission shop to get 3rd gear fixed under warranty. Odometer had accrued less than 3K. Warranty was 6K or 6mos.



Found an ATRA repair shop in Essex MD, near Baltimore, and called them up. They indicated they were absolutely positive they they could get my problem solved. I brought her down and dropped it off. While there, the owner called the shop in RENO. Yeah, we'll fix it if you bring it to Reno... balk... Then the owner asked if RENO was an ATRA member and they said yes, recently. Well, said the owner, I am the vice-president of ATRA, and former president... and RENO found sudden interest in fixing my transmission. My ironic unplanned bit of good luck.



Another week, shipped transmission there and back.



I like doing all my work, this is what happens when competition is so high that the really good mechanics won't work for so little, and they run thru parts changers often. The RENO shop's rebuild guy quit, so the Carson City BS'er was rebuild for hire. I talked to him, ergo the BS. I check all the shops that would handle standard 4WD and heard similar stories. Ironically, RENO NV is the transmission failure capital of the USA, they work 7 days a week in many shops, this one did.



I appreciate the feedback. I learned a lot from this posting.



So I took up college course NV4500 transmission 1301. I hope I don't have to take the graduate level course.



Wayne

 

[DogDiesel]

Taking it back for warranty again. All the symptoms of pilot bearing.