Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) NV4500 Transmission Failure

[MAYoung]

Update: Friday, February 13, 2009

Gentlemen:



The rebuilt unit arrived today from Portland, OR. The unit looks pretty good although I wish they would go easy on the spray paint and avoid coating the top cover and rear housing.



The flywheel was ground today and the pilot bearing replaced. The flywheel was in real good shape with very little grinding--maybe . 005" removed. I am going with the Dodge bearing since I managed to get 190,000 miles out of the factory installed bearing.



Questions:



1) The unit came with a gasket for the rear housing to transfer case hook-up. Should it be used since I don't recall seeing one upon removal?



2) What type of hi-temp grease do you guys recommend?



3) Should a replace the back-up light plug on the transmission cover while it is easy to service?



4) What type of Loctite do you suggest? Blue or Red?



Thanks for the help. The new rear crankshaft seal and flywheel are going in tomorrow followed by more cleaning. Clutch will be here Monday. Transfer case with new seals will be ready Tuesday morning. Who knows, it may even be running by the end of next week. But let's not get ahead of ourselves... .



Regards,



Mark Young

 

[kenny61]

1) The unit came with a gasket for the rear housing to transfer case hook-up. Should it be used since I don't recall seeing one upon removal?



From what I remember it isnt needed but I would put it in if I got it.



2) What type of hi-temp grease do you guys recommend?

CASTROL PYROPLEX RED



3) Should a replace the back-up light plug on the transmission cover while it is easy to service?



The original is still fine on mine



4) What type of Loctite do you suggest? Blue or Red?



Depends what you are using it for the red is a lot "stronger" than the blue. On small screws the red may prevent you from taking it apart.

If your talking about the bolts to put the transmission back (bellhousing, crossmember etc. . ) in I would use antiseize on them. If your talking about the flywheel you can use either as the bolts are large enough that you will be able to apply enough torque to break the bond of either loctite

 

[SRadke]

High temp grease? If we're talking silicone I use Permatex ultra black. Not the regular black, get the ultra.

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

Sounds like your transmission looks like mine Whoops



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#ad




Mine still sits in the garage but I am about reay to do my rebuild since the tax return is due.

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 15, 2009

Gentlemen:



I have encountered my first semi-major goof. I have managed to drill into the crankshaft real seal housing and knick the side of the housing. I am sure that it is primed to leak without replacement or repair. I read all the warnings about not drilling into the housing but I managed to do it anyway. (Experience does count for something. )



In any event, I now have to solve the problem. Bugger as they say in Australia.



Questions:



1) Does the Cummins sleeve/seal kit for the rear crankshaft address this issue or should I just replace the housing? My understanding is that the sleeve fits inside the housing with the newer seal being slightly smaller so that it fits into the new sleeve.



2) If I have to install a new seal housing, it comes with a gasket. What about the seal for the oil pan as the this crankshaft rear seal housing appears to sit on top of the very most rear portion of the oil pan? Would I have to then remove the oil pan and install a new gasket on it?? Would some type of sealant work?



I am now stairing at the rear of the engine block. If I keep up this type workmanship, I should be at the radiator by Tuesday!



Your advice and experience is greatly appreciated in this matter.



M. Young

 

[MAYoung]

For Turbo Tim 1:



In my failure, the main drive gear was melted smoother and the lower counter shaft was not quite as nasty but the situation is very close in appearance.



Thank you for the pictures. Why did yours not receive the proper amout of lubrication? Was their another path to failure?



M. Young

 

[SRadke]

If you nicked the housing or "transmission adapter" (the aluminum part outside the seal) just get it cleaned up real good with brake cleaner and use some good silicone on the outside of the seal. I always put a thin coat of silicone on the outside of seals but in this case be sure you get it on the nick thick enough to fill the gap.

This is assuming we're dealing with a "nick" by my definition. Like, 20-60 thou. If your "nick" is 1/8" deep we may require a different procedure.

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 15, 2008

Thank you for your comments. I have decided to replace the crankshaft rear seal housing. The part is already off and it looks like the oil pan gasket is in good shape.



It was my own fault for not being more careful in drilling the holes for the slide hammer screws. I was trying to be careful but did not understand where the seal ended and the housing began. The damage is too great to trust to silicone or any other type of repair. Let's hope that Cummins West is open tomorrow.



To remove the seal housing, I had to remove the bell housing adapter plate from the rear of the engine block. This plate is held in place by eight bolts and also supports the starter. Once the adapter plate is removed, it exposes the real seal housing. The seal housing is held by six small bolts to the engine block plus four bolts from under the oil pan. It came off easily. (One also has to remove the starter to remove the adapter plate. ) Both parts are cast and machined aluminum parts.



Once the real seal housing is off, one can look directly inside the engine block to see the crank and related parts. It is amazing to think how the entire drive train is supported by this adapter plate---eight bolts of the adapter plate to engine block which in turn holds the eight bolts of the bell housing followed by four bolts for the transmission.



In any event, I did not want to turn this into a science project. Anymore quality workmanship like this and I should be to the front bumper in no time.



Regards,



M. Young

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 16, 2008

The clutch has arrived. Standard Transmission and Gear indicated that that it was a Luk OEM. What you get is a Valeo kit made in Korea. The box claims that is is of OEM quality. I have no idea where Chrysler or GM get their OEM or spares clutches. Any idea on the quality of the Valeo brand???

(I am only looking to replace a stock clutch with a stock clutch. )



I obtained the rear crankcase seal housing from Cummins. That cost $54. 00.

Lesson learned.



I just got a call from Trans Craft in Reno. In replacing the front seal on the transfer case, they discovered that the front bearing had gone bad---bad as in the some individual roller bearings are missing. They are going to split open the transfer case so see if the failed bearing caused any damage. I hope the damage is limited to the bearing but my luck on this project is not going in that direction.



Later tonight I will begin to assemble all the other parts into the truck. I hope to make it through the clutch assembly.



Regards,



M. Young

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 18, 2009

Gentlemen:



I began to reassemble the truck in earnest tonight. I was encouraged by my progress.



1) The first task was to reinstall the rear crankshaft seal housing and gasket. I compared the wear marks on the old housing that I damaged and was able to determine how to use all the parts and tools that came in the Cummins seal kit. The metal part is to center the housing around the crankshaft end, the smaller white ring allows you to slip on the new seal and the larger plastic ring to to tap the seal flush with the lip of the housing. I am reasonably confident that it is correct.



2) The second task was the attach the rear bell housing adapter plate to the engine block. I also re-attached the starter to the adapter housing as well.



3) Next came the flywheel. The biggest challenge in placing the flywheel back on to the crankshaft is its weight (80#??). It was also work to torque the bolts to 101 ft. lbs. (I installed the new Chrysler pilot bearing yesterday in the flywheel. )



4) The clutch disk and clutch cover (plate) came next It was a slow process to screw down the individual bolts a few threads at a time. The alignment of the disc looks good.



5) Finally I reattached the bell housing after installing a new release bearing and and carefully lubricating the fork.



Question:



1) The clutch disc only has 5 damper springs as compared to 6 (outer ring) and 4 (inner ring) on the old disc. The Dodge Service Manual indicates that the disc for a diesel engine in 1998 has only 5 damper springs but disc with 10springs gave me 190k miles. How badly will the service life be compromised with out the extra springs?



Trans Craft in Reno found an internal pump that was damaged by the failed bearing in the tranfer case. The unit will be ready for pickup tomorrow. If the service life of the disc is not too greatly compromised, I hope to have the tranmission back in the truck tomorrow. The tranfer case will follow on Friday. Wish me luck.



M. Young

 

[SRadke]

You'll find it is much easier to get things aligned if you attach the bellhousing to the transmission and put them in as a unit. To get the imput shaft to slide in through the release bearing and into the pilot bearing can prove to be a substantial challenge.

-Scott

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 20, 2008

Gentlemen:



Yesterday, I picked up the NP241 transfer case from Trans Craft in Reno. All of the bearings and seals plus a pump were replaced. The bearing that failed had no ball bearings left in the assembly. The pump was damaged but no other major damage occurred. Lots of metal was picked up by the magnet.



I also picked up a Luk clutch disc. I was not comfortable with the Valeo unit. It looked too different from the original stock unit. The Luk disc is a perfect match and much heavier.



Today I began to reassemble the entire unit. I was hoping to have the transfer case installed by the end of the day. I removed the clutch housing and clutch and installed the Luk unit. I then reattached the clutch (bell) housing and prepped the unit for the transmission to be installed making sure that no torque value or part was left undone.



The transmission is a handful when doing it by yourself. While it came out easy, returning it to the unit is a challenge as Mr. Sadke indicates. Since the engine was supported by a bottle jack, it did not want to assume the same angle as the transmission. The graeater problem was getting the shift cover top into the floor opening so that you can raise the unit to the proper angle. I just worked slowly and carefully by raising the transmission in small increments while lowering the engine. Once the angle was achieved, it went in like greased lightning.



The biggest challenge of the night was the crossmember. It came out fairly easily but going back in was no fun. The unit has a certain amount of spring tension so that it opens wider than the frame rails after removal. I finally "wedged" the crossmember at an angle to the frame (from the rear of the transmission) while tapping with a block of wood and 4# sledge to get it to go in. It is mostly a trial and error process to get it to fit. I wedged one end closest to the bolt holes and tapped the other end with the block and sledge. I must have spent an hour on the effort. There should be a better design given the need to deal with transmissions.



The last effort of the night came when I tried to attach the support brackets to the rear adapter housing and crossmember. When I went to bolt the support bracket, I could not get one bolt started into the adapter housing. After lots of frustration, I discovered that someone had repaired one of the the housing bolt holes by installing a threaded insert. It now takes a bolt of unknown but smaller size plus the bolt hole is slightly offset. The bolts will not fit through bracket hole without a noticeable angle. You then can only get one bolt in but not the other. I think Rube Goldberg was working on this unit. Bummer.



I am going to verify with Dodge tomorrow what the bolt hole size should be and discuss with All Transmission. Maybe I can get my old adapter housing back. It would be possible to change out the rear housing with the proper bolt holes before installing the transfer case. Needless to say I am frustrated with the problem. The shop may have never even noticed the repair before sending the unit out.



I mentioned early on that my preference was to rebuild my old unit. This bolt hole repair is exactly one of the reasons why. It chews up a great deal of time, not to mention frustration, when time comes to but it back together.



In any event, more time and effort will be required to get this one right. What a pain.



Regards,



M. Young

 

[kenny61]

Usually when using the helicoil the repair is the same size as original. Perhaps they just wedged the next size down into the hole without drilling. I would verify the proper size and then check and see if a proper repair would solve the angled bolt problem.

 

[Flying_gage]

I have to ask Mr. Young, are you an engineer by chance? Interesting thread and perspective.

Before undertaking a project like this, you should read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" first as this provides the proper path to acceptance of these mechanized wonders...

Good luck! Will check back in.

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 23, 2009

Gentlemen:



I was able to contact All Transmission of Portland, OR and they are sending a substitute adapter housing post haste. Volumes of apologies were extended. I should have the replacement housing within 2 days.



Over the weekend I drove a 1999 Ford F-350 nearly a 1,100 miles. This journey took me from Sacramento to Riverside, California via the Grapevine. I was towing a 5,000# trailer and payload in the process. The F-350 has a 7. 3 liter Navistar combined with a 6-speed manual transmission. It is a nice truck for towing given the nearly extra 900# of weight but I find the clutch "heavy" and tiring on the leg and shifting to be "stiff. " I also find that the transmission, like most 6-speeds, is really a 5-speed since the low 1st gear ratio is used only on steep inclines or real heavy start-outs. (What I really want in a six speed is a gear ratio between 4th and 5th gear. ) Still, the truck got us through a great deal of rain and traffic. It made me miss the NV4500.



I am not an engineer. I am certainly not a mechanic. (I have, however, been exposed to a number of engineering issues in aerospace and industrial applications. ) I have learned, as a great many TDR members have noted, you have to view these issues as a system--that is, if you intend to change something from what the Dodge engineers placed into the vehicle, you better be ready for the law of unintended consequences. That is why I won't elongate bolt holes or skip a torque value



This is not to say that Dodge builds a perfect truck (think lift pumps) or there is no improvement to be obtained. Still, I am amazed at the level of engineering that is involved in a truck the size and complexity of a 2500.



I get a great deal of utility out of the truck I have owned since new for the last 11 years and 190k miles. I plan to keep it running until that utility is no longer present.



Thank you again for your assistance. I am almost ready to buy the gear oil and tranmission fluid but I am going to wait until the transfer case is installed. I certainly wouldn't want to jinx the project, would I?



Regards,



M. Young

 

[MAYoung]

Update: February 25, 2008

Gentlemen:



The substitute adapter housing arrived today so I was able to make substantial progress towards completion. After removing the old unit, I carefully ran a bead of high-temp silicone sealant (Black Ultra) on the housing. I squeezed it in to the space, torqued the bolts and finished the mounting brackets. (The bolts fit perfectly this time. )



Next came the transfer case. I used the jack to lift it to the proper position and gave it a light push into the adapter. All nuts were then torqued with Loctite.



Finally came the drive shafts. The rear drive is a handful but I got it done. I aligned the shafts to the marks that I had made on the differentials and hubs.



I am ready to put in the gear oil (Chrysler Gear Oil at $23. 00 a quart for the NV4500--ouch) but I want to check one more time with the transmission rebuilder. I noticed some scoring on the rear housing that I removed that appears to have been made by the reverse gear--nothing serious but I want to check to see if check see if it is a potential problem. It is difficult to tell if the housing was scored by this transmission or an earlier event.



I am keeping my fingers crossed. If all goes well, I should have the truck back on the ground with a couple of hours of work.



Regards,



M. Young

 

[MAYoung]

Final Update: Febraury 26, 2009

Gentlemen:



At 12:38PM PST, the 1998. 5 2500 was moving under its own power and operating with its rebuilt transmission, transfer case and new clutch. I put the gear oil in by hand pump and let down the truck before noon. I test drove it about 10 miles and everything appears to be operating normally. The shift tower is a little stiff but the transmission feels like my old NV4500. No leaks or unusual sounds.



I have a few more clean-up items to do in the cab but I hope that this will end my transmission work for a good while.



Thank you again for all the information and suggestions. I will be sure to work up my own "primer" and post that information on this site. I hope that someone else will benefit from the information.



Regards,



Mark Young

 

[MShaheen]

I just got done swapping in my nv4500 and southbend dual disk. Like i said earlier and you confirmed it i onew that the seal was bad in your transmission. When mine was installed we put in a new seal to be on the safe side. Best of luck to you.

oh btw i have noticed that this transmission is not very highway friendly with 4. 10's

 

[MAYoung]

Photo Update

Attached is a photo of my 1998. 5 2500 Quad Cab/Long Bed 4x4 CTD at 189,681 miles. (I hope that I am doing this right. )

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

Sharp truck, Mark mine looks like lack of lubrication and maybe it was but I did take quite a bit of fluid out. What I think happened was my input shaft broke when I broke the spiders in the differential but it kept working until it finally self destructed. I think the input was spinning in the bearing and the gears were making contact at least for a little while and thats why everything looks like it got hot.