NVG4500 5sp failure !

[Archive]

The 5sp in my 96 TD dropped the 5th gear nut for the second time at just under 150K. Upon repair the 5th gear itself is noq loose on the mainshaft (splines worn). I have been hearing more noise in 3nd and 5th and expect some wear but not failure at this mileage.

From what I have read and heard, replace with new is better then rebuild. I am looking for opinions! I have also heard replace with a 98 - 99 model trans (mopar # 52108131) instead of the 96 - 97 mopar # 52108197). Will the newer fit? The newer is on nationwide backorder so it is going to be hard to get (Must be in high demand!). SCOTT1 ... May need you to check in Canada for availablity.

Would really be nice to have the truck done before the end of the year.

I still have the original clutch and plan on replacing it to. Were is a good price on the Centerforce Dual Friction?

Will give more details on why and how later. The majority of my miles are in 5th gear and it has been pulled hard.

I did expect longer life than this. I tried to get the dealership to push under warrenty or at least split the cost as related to the nut comming off twice but no go. Quote for the regional DC service writer is "It is time for you to pay for your problems... " Called the 1800 Customer # and was told the regional service writers option is final. The first time the nut came off was 4 days before the 97 TDR nationals. My dealership patched it up so I could go. Had a long discussion with Mark Corich (DC Dodge Truck Customer Advocate Group) and expressed my only concern was the Dodge help me with this 5th gear nut issue if it returns. I again talked with him at Columbus. Because the problem rarely shows up under the original 36K warrenty you/I have little to stand on down the road when the problem returns and returns and eventually destroys the the spines on the main shaft like in my case.

Really gives one a bad taste when you have gone out of your way to promote Dodge Diesels.

Jerry Weigel
Bismarck ND

 

[Archive]

Jerry: I've lost fifth -nut 3 times. The first time was 48,000 under warranty then 98,000 same coverage, then at 122,000. I pay time. The manager said the one ton truck was a commerical vehicle and the nut fix was only warranteed for 12,000. I paid $462. 00 the last time. The transmission mechanic said he had never seen one loose the nut with splitter trans. I put one in at $2,500. So far so good. US Gear. The weak point is the transmission. Other wise great truck. Regards; Preston

------------------
96 3500 turbo diesel,US Gear overdrive. de-celarator,K&N filter,Rhino-liner, Reese fifth wheel hitch and other parts

 

[Archive]

Shhhhh ! Quiet, your only supposed to discuss problems with automatics on this site !!!

------------------
98 Dodge 3500 QC SLT 4x4, 12V, Auto 3. 54, LSD, Camper pkg, Running Brds, Tow hooks, Tonneau cover, 3 pc BugFlecter, Ventvisors, Cobra / K40, Westach Boost / EGT / transmission Temp gauges, Valley Hitch, Hadley Dual Air Horns, Mopar Bedliner, RS 9000's, Air-Lift system, Cup Smoothie, Down 'N Out Exhaust Tip, S/S Fender Trim. PIAA 90 ProXT's.

99 Lance 1110 Truck Camper

 

[Archive]

Jerry & Turbo Thom, was there any kind of warning that you're about to lose the gear? Any weird noises or feel in the shifter to indicate something is about to happen?
Andy

 

[Archive]

My question and probably a dumb one; do you have to pull the transmission or can you fix it by dropping drive shaft and tail shaft? From this site I gather the 5th gear nut problem was fixed Sept. 98. Well I am on the fence. Mine was built Sept of 98. Hope it was after fix.

------------------
Paul Somers
1999 2500 ISB QuadCab pyro/boost
gauges, Line-x and driftwood.
Amateur extra W4XH

 

[Archive]

Paul, I've been following this issue for a while now (TDR and this forum), I've not experienced it, but sounds like it can be a remove tailshaft, reinstall gear, install new nut package, tighten to 350 ft. lbs. and button it back up kind of deal. If I'm wrong, someone please speak up.


Guy's, my 3500 has about 58k on it now. I've been aware of the need to not work it hard in 5th for about the past 20k. So far I've had zero problems out of anything (knock on wood) on this truck. However, I'm debating doing the latest fix on my 5th gear nut in order to get ahead of a failure.

The only thing that I wonder about is the actual failure rate. A lot of these units are on the road, racking up a lot of miles, what percentage are experiencing 5th. gear nut failures? Any body with access to internal Chrysler data?

------------------
"95" 3500, 4WHD, Ext cab. SLT, 5 spd, 4. 10 LSD, Rancho 9000's PacBrake, running boards, Mopar mud flaps, 35000 LB. gooseneck ball on home engineered attachment system, , pulling a 6,000 lb. three axle backhoe trailer, hauling a 14,000 lb. hoe,or a 6,300 lb. King 4 horse inline trailer (total loaded weight; 11,300)

1970 340 Duster, 4 spd, 3. 55's, 1968,318 factory air Barracuda convertable. .




[This message has been edited by moparguy (edited 12-13-1999). ]

 

[Archive]

If this situation can cause a public safety problem, such as locking up the transmission with resultant possible loss of control and damage to property and or injury and or loss of life, I feel the National highway traffic safety Board (NHTSB) should be notified and complained to. Maybe the result would be a recall campaign that would force Chrysler to come up with a fix for everone that owns the 5 speed trans, before the dreaded breakdown occurs, at no cost to the owner of the vehicle. I'm not sure if NHTSB is aware of the problem. Maybe, Ralph Nader at the "Nader institute", an automotive and safety watch dog group, should be notified! "The squeaky wheel gets the grease. " Take care, Sam
Merry Christmas and happy new year to all !

------------------
1999 Dodge Laramie SLT QC, 24V Cummins turbo diesel ISB, 2WD, auto trans, 3. 55 rear end- LSD, long bed, HD towing and camper pkg,K&N air filter, Boost and Pyro gauge combo, CD player, trip computer,electric seats, bright white paint, chrome diamond plate tool box, resonator removed, 3 1/2 in. x 24 in. Glasspack muffler, 20 in. chrome flared tip, turbo silencer ring removed, all options except leather seats, Full UHF-VHF and HF transceiver equipped (KF6GUW) "I love the smell of diesel in the morning. "
Hemet, California



[This message has been edited by porky (edited 12-13-1999). ]

 

[Archive]

The nut fix is relatively simple, drop shaft, Tcase and replace nut with lastest greatest fix. They have revised the gear also. You have be watch so the gear does not start to work on the splines on the main shaft.

What to look listen for..... NOTHING. Your truck just goes into neutral. If you have forth gear and lower you just lost your 5th gear nut. One truck here at work that never has pulled or hauled (96TD) lost his at 60K. Those of you the run empty most of the time might have it happen once. The revised fix should be permanent for you. Those that pull hard should expect repeats.

I am starting to agree the solution is not to pull hard in 5th. I repeat HARD (lots of boost, heavy loads, long - wind catching loads) it would be best to drop out of 5th.

I have had a temp gauge on my 5sp. I have never had to pull in 4th at least not very far. The nut came off about 150 miles from home. I pull the remaining miles in 4th. (Almost nothing to worry about driving with dropped 5th gear). My trans temp usually runs 120 emmpty and about 10 - 20 degrees warmer if pulling. Running in 4th the temp dropped below 100. I though I must have lost my trans lube. No leaks. When I get home the temp was running 80 degrees.

A splitter running in 4th Over would be ideal. Although I think everything is fine running empty in fifth.

jjw
ND

 

[Archive]

jj , why not try to get a 6 speed if you're going to have 2 buy a transmission , since they seem to be the next best thing since sliced bread

i am happy to hear that the automatic isn't the only trans to have a problem , makes me feel better now that i have an auto on the way ... lol ... actually i hate to hear stuff like this . .

whats the "FIX" for the 5 spped ? does it involve RED loctite ? that stuff would keep that nut from comming off ...

------------------
John W. in N. H.
==================================================

Y2K on order, DI status, schedule build date 12/3, ship date 12/15, 2500, SLT+, Quadcab, 4x4, CUMMINS, Auto, TT, CS, 3. 54 LSD, Driftwood, Camel Leather and LOADED, aspiring to B. O. M. B.

1969 Dodge Superbee, Black on Black, 383, 4spd , BOMBed

 

[Archive]

We lost our 5th gear on the 96' truck at 25k miles. We never pull loaded in 5th gear except on flat which is not much of a load. Dodge fixed it under warranty and said they had never seen this before. Yeah right!

I don't know if the 94' has had any problems.

Later,
Tim

------------------
94' 2500 4x4, std cab, 12v, 5spd, gauges, TST 230/605, 110k mi.
96' 2500 4x4, ext cab, 12v, 5spd, Cummins Exhaust brake, 50k mi, 8-10K horse trailer (wifes).
Phx, AZ

 

[Archive]

Some 4500s have the 5th gear nut, and it can be caused by the gear center hole being on the large side of tolerance, and the mainshaft being on the small side of tolerance. For the first few years of production, this situation caused the gear not to be a tight enough press fit. Secondly, driving habits can contribute to the problem. The engine produces vibrations and harmonics of some sort in the 1500-1800 rpm range--you can feel it in the shifter. While he engine is most fuel efficient at about 1700 rpm, under hard pulls, these vibrations will tend to loosen the 5th gear nut. I like to stay in the range of 1900-2100 rpm on the highway, especially towing. Finally, the later transmission will not have provision for a speedo gear. 1994-7 put the gear in the tailhousing (2wd) or transfer case (4wd). 1998-up use the exciter ring in the differential.

 

[Archive]

I would have liked to go to the 6sp. It has a list of $6,000 as compared to $2,475. The later model 5sp is on nationwide backorder. You can only guess how hard it is to get a 6sp.

I was aware of the lugging issue when in 5th. I have ALWAYS shifted down when tach hit 1800. I also go easy on and off the thottle when loaded. The majotity of the miles (150K) have been in 5th and my sweep spot is 2000 rpms no matter the speed limit!

The gear needs to be "hammered" on to the shaft and then the nut torqued "as tight as you can get it" or 350 ft lbs. The nut is only 1/2" thick! As the nut loosens it allows the gear to move on the spines. Some of the fixes include nuts that are tapped with set screws or staked on the shafts. These all do not spin when loose! They must be hammered all the way off the shaft.

jjw
ND

 

[Archive]

joe d.

ring exciter in the rear diff ??? is this a 2500/3500 thing ? my 98 1500 4x4 has the sensor in the transmission ...

jjw,

i figured that the 6 spd was pricey and also since the factory can't make them fast enough it would be impossible to buy one over the counter , just throwing out an option

------------------
John W. in N. H.
==================================================

Y2K on order, DI status, schedule build date 12/3, ship date 12/15, 2500, SLT+, Quadcab, 4x4, CUMMINS, Auto, TT, CS, 3. 54 LSD, Driftwood, Camel Leather and LOADED, aspiring to B. O. M. B.

1969 Dodge Superbee, Black on Black, 383, 4spd , BOMBed

 

[Archive]

There is a ring with teeth that presses onto the outside diameter of the carrier. The ring gear presses it into place when being installed. This exciter ring works with the electrical sensor that bolts to the top of the housing and protrudes through a hole into the ring gear area. I have a 97 but understand that this ring serves dual purposes in 98-up: its original purpose of antilock brake sensor, and new purpose of speed sensor.

 

[Archive]

The original post asked about Centerforce dual friction. I checked hotrod-offroad.com; they had it for $446.

 

[Archive]

Thanks believer... I found the same price at http://www.truckperformance.com/index.htm. Free shipping with the holidays. Now if I can only get a transmission in the next week or two!

jjw
ND

 

[Archive]

How many trucks out there do not have this problem. My truck has 31,000 on it and now you all are making me nervous about driving my truck.

------------------
1993 Dodge Prostock Daytona 7:70@172, 1987 Grand National 11:77@115, 1996 Dodge Ram 3500 Dually. Stock with a 5 speed, Home page http://www.home.earthlink.net/~whra3

 

[Archive]

Seeing this topic on the forum again can only make 5 Spd. owners like myself a little anxious.
I recently asked my local dealership just how common the problem was. Yes, they've had to do the repair but I was told unless you have a habit of pulling a real heavy load up a real steep hill for a real long time it shouldn't be a problem. Sounds plausible.
Then you start reading the posts from owners who have lost 5th gear who WEREN'T puling heavy loads up steep hills, etc. , and pretty soon you're looking for the Ex-Lax again. Anyway, what I've learned from all the posts is that once it's loose 5th gear is gone and there's a chance the splines on the output shaft may have been damaged. If it happens MORE than once, than get ready to slap some leather and replace the transmission because it's about the same price to replace it as it is to fix it.
If that's so, then wouldn't it be a good idea to fix the problem before it occurs???
After reading the Service Manual there is no doubt in my mind that while not easy, the fix is fairly straight forward and can be done with the transmission still in the truck. According to the Manual, you will need two special tools: the first is a socket to slip on the end of the mainshaft splines so it doesn't turn while you're unscrewing the nut and the second is an oblong "wrench" that grabs the nut so it can be removed by striking the wrench with a hammer. To quote the Manual: "Strike small end of nut wrench with heavy copper hammer to break nut loose. Nut is secured by interference fit thread plus Loctite adhesive and will require several firm blows to loosen it (nut torque is in 300 ft. lb. range)"
Am I missing something or is this a good example of preventative maintenace? Even if you have to buy the tools, it's gotta be cheaper than the cost ($500. 00) of having DC do it! Also, I know the nut itself has been "modified". Has the new nut proven to be the cure?
Finally, there are different grades of Loctite. I'll bet the factory used the blue(medium strength); why not use the red(high strength)?
Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

------------------
'94 SLT 2WD, 5 Spd. , 3. 54, Synthetics, By-Pass, TST, Gauges, Scotty K&N, Horton, 4" Exhaust, Prime-Loc, Chromed Acc's, Gutless Cat, Silenced Ring, PIAA's, 255x85Rx16's and 12v Pride.

 

[Archive]

WILL THE NUT COME OFF THE 5 SPEEDS????
YES!
WHEN??? DEPEND'S, ALWAYS UNDER LOAD? ALWAYS RUN 5 TH GEAR? SOON.
EMPTY ALL THE TIME- WAY PAST WARRANTY MILAGE.
THE FACTORY USE'S RED LOCTITE.
WITH THE NEW CLAMPING NUT THEY USE 609. THERE IS A PRODUCT # BUT I HAVE TO DIG THE BOTTLE OUT TO GET IT. 4 TH FIX. & COMES WITH REPAIR KIT.
IS IT A SAFTY ISSUE?? NO. WON'T LOCK UP.
DROP TO FOURTH AND YOU CAN DRIVE ON DOWN THE ROAD.
WOULD I BUY ANOTHER 5 SPD ???????????????????
IN A HEART BEAT. I'M GOING TO BEAT YOU OVER THE HEAD FOR A DISCOUNT THOUGH. THE GEAR MIGHT COME LOOSE. THEN I'M TAKING IT HOME PULL THE REAR COVER AND FIX IT. DODGE WAS CLOSE WITH THERE 3RD FIX. IT'S LATE,EARLY TRIP IN THE AM. WILL POST THE FIX I USED LATER.
TOTAL VEH MILES 690,000 +

------------------
96-3500 SLT EXT. CAB AM/FM/CD-RINO LINER. D-CELERATOR EXH. BRK-RED LINE VAC. OVER HYD BRK CONTROL- AIR BAGS W/HVY DUTY AIR COMP. PUTCO S/STEEL DEEPBOARDS FRONT TO REAR. REESE 20K 5TH WHEEL & GOOSE -REESE 20K HITCH BELOW W/17K RECEVER. CLEAR COATED & SOUND DEADINGING &UNDER COATED 5 SPD/W 4:10 MCHLN'S 235/16'S UNIDEN PC76/WEATHER-WILSON 1000 MAG MOUNT ANT. 4 WHL ANTI LOC BRK SYS.

 

[Archive]

We lost 5th gear at 26k miles in the 96'. Rarely pull a load and never pull a hill in 5th gear with a load. I guess we were unlucky! Dodge made the repair.

Later,
Tim

------------------
94' 2500 4x4, std cab, 12v, 5spd, gauges, TST 230/605, muffler elimination, gutted cat, Premium Blue 2000 oil@5k miles, 110k mi.

96' 2500 4x4, ext cab, 12v, 5spd, Cummins Exhaust brake, Premium Blue 2000 oil@5k miles, 50k mi, 8-10K lb 4-horse trailer (wifes truck)

Phx, AZ