OFF-ROAD DIESEL FUEL.... AKA Running The Red

[BDanner]

I had the local dealer here in Virginia try blaming "red" on the cause of my lift pump & vp44 at 54K miles. The '01 3500 was towed in after it would not start. They changed the filter as this is the first protocol in diagnosis and discovered "red'. The service writer gave me the speech about off road fuel being dirty and unfiltered and this clogs the filters, Blah, Blah there by causing my truck not to start. They somehow got it restarted with the dying lift pump and thought all had been repaired with a $150 filter change and out the door I went.



48 hrs later the truck returned to the dealer on the roll off (3500's barely fit). I did take their diagnosis with a small grain of salt and refilled my next tank with the "good" fuel worrying that this "red" could possibly become a warranty issue.



I was actually impressed at how quickly DC covered the items, once the dealer requested their help on how to fix the vehicle. The dealer had spent 3-4 days speculating what might be wrong and was getting ready to drain my tank of the 35 gallons of "pink"as a fix.



DC covered the Carter and the Bosch vp44 without a problem, with no thanks to the service writer for trying his best to blame "red". I did however get nailed for a second $150 fuel filter not covered by warranty that falls under the pre-op diagnosis. I left feeling good that Cummins & DC took responsibility for their well documented symptomatic problem and did not try to blame "red".



As a little side note here in Virginia our Governors Raid the road funds for social programs. These road tax funds fall into their social payout programs that get them elected at the expense of road improvement. Sounds kind of like Social Security and the little "Lock Box" that Al Gore and George Busch argued over.



I do still keep 550 gallons of "red" around for my 7 gallon fill ups in my Kubota tractor.



*Disclaimer: This fuel is not intended for highway use... ... ... ... .

 

[Jed]

red rules

80,000 with red before vp44 failure. Dealer had no problem with the color of my fuel. In california all diesel is the same, red dye is injected at the rack when the tanker wagons are filled for delivery to the stations. This I witnessed when I was working at the pipeline terminal. You have to pay sales tax. Friday I paid 2. 60 for 80 gal. I changed many stock fuel filters in my 02 and contrary to what many have posted, the filter does not hold the dye. Only people who have not actually run red are posting this information.

However,with only a 30 to 50 cent difference in price and a transfer tank and pump costing several hundred it will take a while to break even. Also if you drive around with a transfer tank in plain sight you may be noticed.

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

Did you ever cut apart a filter to verify that the dye isnt being held? I have. Filters hold the dye... . maybe not all of it... but it turns a telltale pink. I have SEEN this on Diesel locomotive filters (Primary BHFFs and secondaries), off-road construction equipment as well as Ag equipment.



I also take offense to the *people who havent run red post this info* statement. Maybe I should just throw out the ASE Master and ADS certification too seeing as wrenching and rebuilding experience dont mean crap here. Kiss my ***.



And people wonder why I dont post much here anymore. Have a good day.

 

[nickleinonen]

(Primary BHFFs and secondaries)

:-laf:-laf:-laf



never heard it called that before. on the large cartridge filters [6x29?] the media of the filter's we are getting now are a dark brown color, so you can't really see the color of the fuel on the primary filters. and i have never cut a secondary open yet... haven't had the need to do so. .



but just thinking about the amount of waisted fuel at my shop, there is easially 100 gallons of fuel thrown away daily from over filling of tanks and what gets thrown out that is inside the secondary's when inspections are done. they put about 1,000 imperal gallons on the ground a few weeks back when they had a 92day inspection done and the one who did the inspection didn't get the primary filter o-ring back in place on the sd75 filter housing. and they didn't do their run checks after the filters changed out, but before. still not sure how they managed to not notice the fuel running out the carbody and over filling the pollution retension tank until after so much was on the ground

 

[dodge cummins]

you must not be very smart to make a posting like this. its called tax evasion!! not only would you be fined but also audited!! its not worth it. trust me. to answer your question though, your truck will run much smoother on the illegal stuff and it would be alittle quieter.

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

never heard it called that before. on the large cartridge filters [6x29?] the media of the filter's we are getting now are a dark brown color, so you can't really see the color of the fuel on the primary filters. and i have never cut a secondary open yet... haven't had the need to do so. .



but just thinking about the amount of waisted fuel at my shop, there is easially 100 gallons of fuel thrown away daily from over filling of tanks and what gets thrown out that is inside the secondary's when inspections are done. they put about 1,000 imperal gallons on the ground a few weeks back when they had a 92day inspection done and the one who did the inspection didn't get the primary filter o-ring back in place on the sd75 filter housing. and they didn't do their run checks after the filters changed out, but before. still not sure how they managed to not notice the fuel running out the carbody and over filling the pollution retension tank until after so much was on the ground

:-laf :-laf :-laf



Well... . the BHAF came to mind when I was replying... figured what the heck... might as well make a BHFF too.



The SD75 fuel incident had to suck for the guy... . but makes the rest of us :-laf I am guilty myself of throwing away fuel in the secondaries; heck, no place to dump it other than into the waste filter cart we used. Had a fuel hose blow out of the handle fitting while refueling once... . didnt get drenched but made a nice mess for the trackpans to catch. Have also seen the purple fuel result too... . the blue dye must be a Canadian thing? I only saw it with Canadian units (CN and CP)

 

[nickleinonen]

the blue dye must be a Canadian thing? I only saw it with Canadian units (CN and CP)

i think so too... but i know our fuel in the tank in the yard [1,000,000 gallons] is all blue, with some other stuff mixed in from when we had the flow meters calibrated [there is a little bunker C in there, and some mobil sg6000 gear oil there too, but only like 50 gallons]



i am 99% sure the blue color is for the high sulfer graded fuel, and you can sure smell the sulfer in the fuel. i'll bet when we start getting the new GE evo's engines, we will have to start getting low sulfer fuel... also, in canada, road tax is paid on railroad service fuel [but not in the usa???]... so that could also be why we don't have red fuel. . ?

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

i think so too... but i know our fuel in the tank in the yard [1,000,000 gallons] is all blue, with some other stuff mixed in from when we had the flow meters calibrated [there is a little bunker C in there, and some mobil sg6000 gear oil there too, but only like 50 gallons]



i am 99% sure the blue color is for the high sulfer graded fuel, and you can sure smell the sulfer in the fuel. i'll bet when we start getting the new GE evo's engines, we will have to start getting low sulfer fuel... also, in canada, road tax is paid on railroad service fuel [but not in the usa???]... so that could also be why we don't have red fuel. . ?

As far as I know, road tax is NOT paid by railroads (offroad use) in the US... . therefore the red dye. Im surprised that Canada requires road tax paid on offroad use fuel. Didnt know that... quite interesting! The blue dye must be for the high sulfur content, Im quite sure that Canadian on-road diesels dont burn high-sulfur for emissions reasons. I could be wrong. . wouldnt be the first time. :{



Im not too sure if the red stuff we got was high sulfur all the time..... some days you could smell it and feel it (burning eyes on cold/high haze starts) and some days you wouldnt... even with a cold start.



As for the GE Evos, Im pretty sure they can burn anything. :-laf :-laf but would be optimized for low-sulfur of course... . So yeah, I'd probably expect low sulfur to start showing up your way too.



Dontcha love emissions rules? Just give me a simple toolbox and a EMD and Im happy. Oo. maybe a GE too, but you can tell me if thats worth it or not.

 

[Jed]

Did you ever cut apart a filter to verify that the dye isnt being held? I have. Filters hold the dye... . maybe not all of it... but it turns a telltale pink. I have SEEN this on Diesel locomotive filters (Primary BHFFs and secondaries), off-road construction equipment as well as Ag equipment.



I also take offense to the *people who havent run red post this info* statement. Maybe I should just throw out the ASE Master and ADS certification too seeing as wrenching and rebuilding experience dont mean crap here. Kiss my ***.



And people wonder why I dont post much here anymore. Have a good day.

I am sorry to have offended your mechanicness The stock fuel filter on my truck was a paper cartridge so I did not need to cut it apart to see what color it was. The paper is a light brown before use and a darker version of the same thing after use. With a good light you can see dirt ect. . The filter was the same color with each fuel. After drying the filters looked the same. I no longer have a stock system but I will be happy to cut apart the filter on my fass and post the results.

As far as you not posting on this site it is a loss for the site as I have learned a lot from reading your posts. My post reflected the results I had with a stock fuel filter.

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

I am sorry to have offended your mechanicness The stock fuel filter on my truck was a paper cartridge so I did not need to cut it apart to see what color it was. The paper is a light brown before use and a darker version of the same thing after use. With a good light you can see dirt ect. . The filter was the same color with each fuel. After drying the filters looked the same. I no longer have a stock system but I will be happy to cut apart the filter on my fass and post the results.

As far as you not posting on this site it is a loss for the site as I have learned a lot from reading your posts. My post reflected the results I had with a stock fuel filter.

Jed,



I am probably the one that should apologize..... I did jump down your neck kinda hard there. Work hasnt been going well for me for quite awhile and it does get to me at times. One of those situations where Im constantly beating my head on the wall..... warning engineers and supervisors that this idea wont work well or at all and it fails on the line, or during testing or even worse. . in the field. (aerial ladder hydraulics on Seagrave trucks).



I didnt think of the 02's and thier stock paper filter setups... . Im so used to the standard spin-ons and stuff. Most of the spin-ons I had used had white or off-white media in them... . easier to tell the red dye contamination on those. The brown paper is almost impossible to tell by color---- but with it being darker as you mentioned, its a possibility that the dye was trapped. The light would pick up your dirt and other insolubles (being solids) but I have no clue what light would pick up red dye in brown paper. :-laf



Some of the locomotive primary BHFFs were also brown paper at times and then I couldnt tell if the dye was there, just the darker than usual coloring--- and I didnt have time to dry em out... . The secondarys were usually white paper media (same size generally as a CTD oil filter) and the red was plain as day-- pinkish hue.



The FASS uses spin-ons doesnt it? If its the ones Im thinking of, they're Fleetguards and they should have the white media in them. When its time to change one... go for it and cut er open. Its been a couple years since I last cut one..... maybe they've changed dye properties?



Anyways... . the Smirnoff is now kicking in and Im cooled off. Again I apologize--- I'll be around... but Im usually over on OB more now.

 

[nickleinonen]

Just give me a simple toolbox and a EMD and Im happy. maybe a GE too, but you can tell me if thats worth it or not.

yeah, the emd's are easy to work on, but i very much like working on the ge engines. lots of guys in my shop don't, but i do.



simple toolbox... ? picture of my abbombination of a "simple" toolbox [i've got a new gray or westward 46"x25"x46" toolbox on order from work to replace mine as now the bottom is colapsing in from too much weight:-laf:-laf]



and today i had a very bad experience with a ge loco... and this one is going to get me a pee pee slapping pretty good... the company isn't too impressed when you drop a couple of axles on the ground.

[my ground man forgot to drop the derail before he signaled me to back up. . took a few pictures with the camera phone after we tried to use a pair or rerailers to get it back on, but that didn't work. i wonder if i will get stuck having to drill out the broken bolts for the pedistle liner keeper blocks. snapped them clean off of r/s #5]

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Purple fuel.



Cool

 

[Jed]

EMD

No apology needed especially if you were under duress from an engineer. If you are ever in southern cal I will by a bottle of the good stuff and we can tell engineer stories. I have some amazing pictures of engineering genius at work. (I am a building inspector. ) My best advice is start your own company and hire your own engineer, for some reason they listen a lot better when you sign their checks.

DIESELMINDED The short answer is yes. But we can all agree that it is illegal and a pain in the ... to clean it out of your system. Unless you do not ever stand a chance of being dipped it is probably not worth it, unless you commit

to it long term and put on a lot of miles. And you got to figure that one dip will eat up all of that savings. My 2 cents.

 

[Roy1]

At least ya didn't fold the rail. Don't like rerailers, rather block them on.



Roy

 

[RGardner]

At least in Oklahoma you can buy clear off road diesel. You just have to pay the state tax and you can apply for that back!

 

[RGardner]

On a more serious note, I had a friend get caught with red in the tank and it cost him 2 grand and only that little cause he was in the guard with one of the irs guys! They told him if he ever got caught again expect to pay 20 grand at a minimum! So weigh your saving carefully!

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Read this for those of you in PA



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127863

 

[nickleinonen]

At least ya didn't fold the rail. Don't like rerailers, rather block them on.

yeah... i had never done that before [and hope to never do it again] and i was doing what my supervisor told me to do. the yard crew got it back on track. i didn't see it done, but i was told they used a jacking device, that lifts the rear up, then another jack can move it left or right to get it aligned with the rails, then lowers it down. no real major damage after they inspected the unit. #6 motor bottom covers all bolts shiered off, #5 tm bottom cover all bolts sheired off and cover nfg now. #5 gearcase slight damage [nothing to repair though] and #5 r/s pedistle liner keeper plates 4 3/4" bolts sheired off...

 

[BStegall]

Hey guys. I'm new to this site and have mostly been lurking and reading back posts. I don't even have one of these trucks yet, but it's top on my list to do when I get back from Iraq.



With regards to the IRS dipping your tank, how does the 4th ammendment play into this? It might be argued fairly well in court that a random dipping was an unreasonable search. What is often given as probable cause to perform a dip test in a non-commercial vehicle? I would imagine that they've established procedures to justify PC in commercial vehicles already, but personal vehicles it would be the same as a cop pulling you over and demanding to look in your trunk with no PC. Unless they saw you fueling from the pump... I think a good lawyer could beat it.



ETA- FWIW, my dad/grandad have a home heating fuel/convenience store business in south central NC. I had this discussion with him previously, with regards to the differences in the different grades of diesel. I was interested b/c I want to get a diesel genset (based on cummins 4BT) later in life.



He replied that #2 Fuel Oil (used in furnaces) and off-highway diesel are exactly the same thing. They have a higher sulpher rating than on-road LSD, and they are dyed IAW IRS guidelines. All three can pretty much be used interchangeably. He said his company pumps "off-highway" and "#2FO" from the same tank, they are literally the same fuel. Hope this info adds to the thread.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Welcome aboard BStegall... .....