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Oil Analysis

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Anyone Running DD2 and DDUFM

The Torque Locker by AutoTrans

Anybody got an idea how long it takes to get results back from Monitor after you send the oil sample? Its been 3 weeks since I sent mine in, and I haven't heard squat. I dont recall seeing where it said "please wait 6-8 weeks for a reply". ?!? Glad I wasnt waiting to see if my oil was ok for continued use. :rolleyes:



I am gonna give it another week, and then I am gonna call. :mad: Are there any other companys that do this a little quicker?



Any other thoughts or ideas are welcome...
 
My "average" experience has been more than one week and less than two. But even the good companies will sometimes take longer every once in awhile. If in your shoes, I'd call Monday. Especially if it is your first sample with them, there's always a chance they entered your return address into their database with a typo.
 
I get mine done at Blackstone. They told me that if everything is OK, they send the report via snail mail. If something is not right, they will call and inform you right away.
 
What a great bunch of people...

Well, after I found a phone number, and talked to all the right, very nice people we got the mess straightened out:) My sample was completed on the 10th.

I only included sub-catagories with values.

Here it is...



Wear Metals-

Iron 23

Chromium 1

Aluminum 3

Copper 3

Lead 2



Contaminant Metals-

Silicon 6

Sodium 3

Potassium 1



Additive Metals-

Calcium 3492

Phosphorus 1166

Zinc 1280



Test Data-

Fuel by vol . 05%

Soot by vol <. 1%

Water by vol <. 1%



Needless to say, I am more than happy with my results. Oo.
 
How many miles on engine? How many miles on that oil?



(Iron and silicon go way down after engine break in; for me that was probably 50k, and at 122k each new analysis comes back even better than the one before. )
 
I am curious about the analysis. How do you know if the results are good or bad? I assume there is something that tells you whats good or bad?? How does the oil analysis work, I guess is my real question.

Robin
 
I use blackstone ( for now ) Your results are compared to the "universal" average and there is usually some commentary on the bottom. Also the previous results for the equipment are listed ( last 3 or 5). This is so you can determine trends.
 
Mtngoat,



I am curious about the oil analysis technique as well. The key seems to be getting a good sample from oil that has been well mixed and warmed before sampling. In the Fall 1995 TDR, they reprinted an article from the Sept 1995 "Owner Operator" magazine (big truck mag?). The article was called "Unlocking the Mystery of Oil Analysis" and had a fairly detailed description of the process.



Here are some interesting quotes from that article (I have it right in front of me here):



'Dennis Boggs, Phillips 66 lubricants technical director says, "You can use oil analysis to determine whether or not you are able to increase or must decrease oil drain intervals. That is one of the main purposes of oil analysis. "

But, the Detroil Diesel engine lube requirements manual says, "Since an oil analysis cannot completely assess the lubricating oil for continued service, it should not be used to extend oil drain intervals. " Don Carver, Cummins' wily director of petroleum products, recommends using the company's charts to set your change intervals rather than analysis. He says you can come up with intervals based on analysis, then experience a change in operating conditions, and compromise engine protection before it's even time to use analysis again.

These objections from engine manufacturers offer proof that increasing oil change intervals is a risky business, and must be approached very cautiously. But, don't ignore the need to use oil analysis on a regular basis. A good program pays dividends. '



The article has a sidebar on the "super filters" or what people refer to as bypass filters I guess, the users and test labs reported very good filtration results but the article cites several oil and engine manufacturers who expressed concern since while the super filters removed fine particulates better, there might be problems with sludge buildup on pistons etc from antiwear additives that have given up the ghost over long drain intervals - zinc and phosphorus being singled out.



They list a bunch of different analysis companies, and close the article with a section that is titled "Develop a Program for Extended Drain". Their recommendations were:



1. Use a premium oil with extended drain capability and proven performance

2. Use analysis along with other means of evaulating stresses on the oil, to determine the change interval. It says that over-the-road trucks getting 6. 5 mpg or more with less than 25% PTO and idle time are the best extended drain candidates. Translated to Ram usage, this would likely correspond to a truck that is worked on the road a lot with minimal stop-n-go traffic.

3. Don't take on the risk alone. If under any kind of warranty, get manufacturer approval for extended changes. If the engine manufacturer won't warrant it under these conditions, the oil manufacturer might - but you need to get their approval on the extended drain.

4. Use premium filters. A guy from Wix Corp. said, "Standard filters may not be suitable for extended drain. " He recommended using one of the fiberglass media type filters since they are supported with a metal screen and not as subject to media "blow out" as the standard paper elements.



Number 3 makes you stop and think.



There were several other blurbs on oil in that issue that offer some good advice too. One of the readers had corresponded with the Chief Engineer for the Premium Blue oil that Cummins sells, asking about the use of thinner oils in the CTD, specifically 10W-40. The engineer recommended against it, expressing concern that the 10W-40 would be too thin at start-up, and specifically mentioned that the synthetic oils tested by Cummins tended not to protect the engine at start-up temperatures above about 0 degrees F because of poor adhesive properties. The engineer apparently recommended staying with the oil recommendations in the owner manual as determined by Cummins.



In the next issue, Spring 1996, there was a TDR Review on Oil Analysis where the writer was able to meet with Ms. Shirley Minges from Lubricon Labs, a division of Fleetguard. (This is a great article, it would be useful to the members if Robert or somebody scanned it and put it on the board in the archives. )



Here are some quotes from the article:



'Inevitably our conversation turned to the subject of oil change intervals. She cautioned about using analysis results alone as the basis for extending the interval between oil changes. To explain the logic behind her caution, she agreed to instruct our readers in how to interpret the results of an oil report.



Shirley commented, "If you're considering an extended change interval, at a minimum you'll need three things: the support of your engine manufacturer, the support of your oil company, and a person on staff dedicated to monitoring the conditions between oil changes. Using analysis alone to look at the condition of the lube oil doesn't tell you any more than, say, a picture of a mountain climber. At the time of the picture, the conditions were OK. The next step may have been the one where the climber fell off the cliff. It's the same way with oil. In the next 500 miles the additive package in the oil, which consists of an anti-wear component (zinc, barium, and phosphorus), an anti-foam component (a silicon polymer), and detergents to hold contaminants in suspension (calcium and magnesium) may deplete. You won't know this until the next sample - which may be too late. "



"Further complicating any oil change extension is the addition of oil to keep the oil at the acceptable level. New oil replenishes the existing sump. Depending on an engine's condition, some trucking firms simply continue to add oil to the sump without ever making a complete change. You've got to ask yourself, how did the engine reach a condition which would seem to justifiy such a practice? Chances are it's an old engine or one which has been neglected. "



"For the average fleet, it's best to stick with the manufacturer's advice on change intervals. Oil analysis is best used to analyze trends and to catch a small problem before it turns into a big one. " Let's take a look at what an oil sample can tell you via the typical Lubricon report. ' (. . followed by chart. . )



'It was strongly suggested in Issue Ten's "ShadeTree" article to stay with the published manufacturer recommendations for oil changes. Shirley has the same recommendation: "For the Turbo Diesel engine with its small oil capacity (3 gallons compared to a 11 gallon "big rig" engine and a 50 gallon Cummins 50 liter engine) the oil and filter change is cheap insurance. " "Oh yeah," she adds, "use the Fleetguard LF3552 microglass filter for your Turbo Diesel, it's additional filtration insurance for your engine. " Thanks Shirley!'



:eek: Too much typing, fingers hurt :eek: The article concludes with a bunch of info on the different wear metals, their probable / possible source, and "normal" ranges for our type of engines. Really good stuff!



Maybe somebody can scan the chart and the description of wear metals into the computer...
 
I should add to my previous post...

Originally posted by jtisdale

25,000 on truck. 5,000 on oil.



Thanks Mike, for the informative post.



This was a 15w40 (popular oil brand and Fleetguard Stratapore filter) with A LOT of stop and go traffic with 80% of this oils service life being in ambient temps below freezing. I live 5 blocks from work and although I try to make a few laps around town to warm it up, sometimes it doesn't happen. Usually after work, I head to the coffee shop where it usually (high idles or high idles with the 3 cylinder function on) for usually no more than 45 minutes each morning. Usually 3 times a week I take it out of town for a 10-15 mile trip to get the fluids flowing good. Maybe twice a month it has a trailer behind for 20-50 miles.

The truck doesn't have a garage, and I haven't plugged it in yet this year.

I did change the oil at the end of the 5000 miles to a different brand, now 5w30.

I was happy to see the wear metals relatively low (IMO) and more importantly the low % of the fuel, water and soot.

I plan to take another sample when I change my oil again, at the next 5000 miles.
 
I wouldn't pay much attention to lubrication recommendations made more than 12 years ago. Especially when someone makes a statement like "10W-40 would be too thin at start-up, and specifically mentioned that the synthetic oils tested by Cummins tended not to protect the engine at start-up temperatures above about 0 degrees F because of poor adhesive properties" That comment makes absolutely no sense at all. Always be suspect of 'experts' commenting on product that they do not themselves sell. The standards for diesel oils have changed greatly since then and most HD oil are now specifically designed for extended drain interval in OTR fleets.



Note that the '03 engines now indicate 7. 5/15K drain intervals for severe/normal service. Why? Because modern oils are designed for these intervals. Could older engines use the same intervals without harm? Just look at the oil analysis data that has been posted on this site. CI-4 oils are designed for cooled EGR engines which are much tougher on oil than our engines. With proper filtration, these oils hold up just fine.



I do agree that oil analysis has limitations and it makes no sense at all to push the limits of an oil by extending drain intervals beyond say 40-50% of capacity. But you can learn a lot from oil analysis if you use it to look at trends. And the techs at most analysis labs will flag any problems for you in most cases (but these guys are not 'experts'). If you do decide to go to extended drains, you SHOULD use oil analysis as a matter of best practice. If you follow the manufacturers recommended drain intervals, it may be a waste of money except to give you that warm fuzzy feeling that comes from knowing that your engine is running well.
 
I wouldn't pay much attention to lubrication recommendations made more than 12 years ago. Especially when someone makes a statement like "10W-40 would be too thin at start-up, and specifically mentioned that the synthetic oils tested by Cummins tended not to protect the engine at start-up temperatures above about 0 degrees F because of poor adhesive properties" That comment makes absolutely no sense at all. Always be suspect of 'experts' commenting on product that they do not themselves sell. The standards for diesel oils have changed greatly since then and most HD oil are now specifically designed for extended drain interval in OTR fleets.



Lee,



Hope you aren't attributing the above opinions to me. As I noted, they are sourced from the Fall 1995 Turbo Diesel Register. The specific statement about 10W-40 oil was attributed to "Mr. Don Carver, the Chief Engineer for Premium Blue at Cummins Engine Company" in a very informative Backfire letter from Mr. Tom Deacon. It can be found on page 64 of the Fall 1995 portion of the "TDR Volume Three" compendium.
 
No Mike, I was referring to the article you cited. He doesn't doesn't know what he is talking about regardless of his credentials. Experts disagree on many things and you should never believe something just because it appears in print.



It is almost impossible for an oil to be too thin at startup. Even a 0W oil is much thicker at startup than a 40 weight oil at normal operating temperature. And the difference between a 10W and a 15W oil is inconsequential particularly since many companies blend their 15W oils toward the low end of the viscosity range for better low temperature performance. Similarly, the suggestion that synthetic oils have poor adhesive properties is also wrong That is unless he was referring to pure PAO based oils that haven't been available for a very long time. Modern synthetics contain a fair amount of polar ester-based stock that has much better adhesive properties toward metals than conventional oil.



You shouldn't take my word on any of this either. You can look it up. ;)
 
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Thanks again, Lee. Mind if I just decide to believe you? It sure sounded reasonable, and I don't feel like doing more research today... ;)



As to the wear metals reported, those sound very good to me for a "young" engine (25k) with 5k on the oil. I believe nobody should spend too much time worrying about minor differences between what they're seeing and those "universal" averages. When my engine was "young", I saw higher iron than you're seeing now, and I fretted every new sample, wondering "what's wrong, why me?" But now that my engine is over 100k, I'm seeing much lower iron than you're seeing now. I don't think it means anything more than "we're both OK".



I recommend you use the oil analysis two ways:



1) Read the report, looking for any "gross" problems or general conclusions as reported by the techs. These would include notations of fuel or antifreeze in the oil, high silicon indicating air filtration problems, or other "big picture" stuff.



2) Compare to your own past numbers. As your engine wears, iron and silicon as figured on a per-5k-miles basis, should go down. This will probably happen even if you change brands of oil or filters. If a trend goes in the wrong direction by more than a small amount, go back to what you were doing before.
 
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