Oil Pump Failed? Munching turbos...

[pwerwagn]

So I have a friend who has an 05, has ~100K on it. The truck gets used pretty hard. He has always had problems with the oil pressure gauge doing funny things when the truck is really cold (first minute or so of run time when its ~0* outside).

His stock turbo had ~80K on it and he took it off to put on a turbonetics stage 1. I didnt help him install it, he did it himself. That turbo lasted about 10K, and then took a crap. He needed his truck running, so I let him borrow an HE341 I had that was good. It lasted about 5K and its trashed.



On to the question... my hope is that he RTV'ed something and got RTV in the oil drain or something. But I find it odd that every time the turbo has failed, its been when really cold and his gauge is doing the weird oil pressure game. I have a hard time believing the oil pump can work fine 99. 99999% of the time and occasionally drop pressure? I have always assumed his problem to be the oil pressure sending unit.



Anyone think the pump can be bad? Or any obvious gotchas I havent thought about? He ordered another new turbo from II, and I dont want him to have this problem again (actually I dont want to install another turbo on his truck again haha).



--Jeff

 

[Prairie Dog]

He needs to get a real OP gauge on it. The stock gauge is just a show the computer puts on. In reality the sending unit is just a switch that trips at 6psi. Anything above that and the trucks computer just gives you it's little show on the gauge.

 

[pwerwagn]

He needs to get a real OP gauge on it. The stock gauge is just a show the computer puts on. In reality the sending unit is just a switch that trips at 6psi. Anything above that and the trucks computer just gives you it's little show on the gauge.

Ya, I realize that. Problem is, its not repeatable and I was hoping for some other obvious thing prior to putting this new turbo on.

 

[steved]

I remember reading on this forum that a member had a CR that came with a broken oil pump shaft... it did weird things as the pump would still "pump" oil, just not very well. It would show oil pressure, then no oil pressure, then oil pressure again... but that was before we all realized the oil pressure gauge reading was computer generated. I want to say it didn't last very long until it toasted the engine though...



The other thing I would check would be the pressure relief and the filter head/boss... make sure the pressure relief is working and that the ports are fully open in the filter head/boss. I would also check the supply line to the turbo...

 

[pwerwagn]

Interesting!! I also didnt think about the pressure relief. Thanks for those suggestions.

 

[AH64ID]

Since the ECM doesn't know the real pressure, only if it has 6 psi or not, a funny gauge would mean pressure was cycling above and below six frequently.

Based on the timing it seems he messed something up with the install, but maybe not.

How are the turbo's failing? A HE341 is going to get worked pretty hard on a 05.

 

[pwerwagn]

Both turbos have failed when super cold in the morning, and he starts the truck and leaves his house. Both times he did notice that it did the odd oil pressure cycling game, and then shortly after the turbo was making bad noise. When I put the 341 on his (since he has a smarty and its my turbo), I set the WG down to about 20psi. Granted... it could be coincidental for sure.

I am leaning towards him messing something up (hopefully). Im expecting to find a huge glob of RTV in the drain or something like that.

Do the OP sending units failing have any symptoms like I described? Im having a hard time grasping how the truck will NEVER do it when the temps are above ~30*, but will do it hit and miss down low. In my mind I cant find a logical reason for the actual oil pressure to do that. OH... if he plugs it in, the gauge never does it. And, the truck has done this since 70K miles, or even before. I first noticed it when I put a goerend trans in his truck one winter and it freaked me out.

 

[fox]

If the truck is run hard, does he let the turbo cool down before shut down???

This is the first thing I look at when a turbo gives up.

I've seen so many I can't count them where the driver runs it hard, pulls into a drive and shut it down. EGT's still about 500!!

They don't learn.



Put a real gauge on it for a day and see what it is doing.

 

[AH64ID]

When I put the 341 on his (since he has a smarty and its my turbo), I set the WG down to about 20psi. Granted... it could be coincidental for sure.

That may be coincidental, but could provide him with other issues. Stock the 05 ran about 32 psi of boost to stay cool, and even HE341s ran about 24 stock.



He needs a real oil psi gauge to see if its a sender or oil issue.

 

[Wingate]

have you checked for differential across the intercooler? Possibly due to the first failure? a partially clogged CAC will break the shaft of a turbo...

 

[ata]

In the filter head there are two bypass valves. One is an oil filter bypass for when the oil is to heavy or thick to pass through the oil filter cold. The second is a pressure REGULATING valve. When the oil pressure gets to high this valve opens and dumps the oil back into the pan bypassing the engine. (like a really cold engine) It sounds like this valve is sticking open and dumping the oil and taking out the turbo. Like said the oil pressure sender is just a switch or JOKE. Put a real gauge on it. The pressure Regulating valve is on the front side of the oil filter head. It's the 17mm or 19 mm plug head. It's just a spring and plunger. Take it out and clean and polish the plunger. Make sure the O-Ring is in real good shape.

 

[NIsaacs]

What weight oil is he using? Based on your trouble shooting, it only happens when it is cold out and when the engine heater is not used. 15/40 will not flow very well at 0* especially at any rpm above an idle.



Nick

 

[HBarlow]

Reports of Cummins ISB oil pump failures, even crankshaft and bearing failures, are uncommon.

We know that Cummins and Dodge are so confident they use a dummy oil pressure indicator in the dash that displays computer simulation not oil pressure to make drivers feel good.

I would look elsewhere for the cause.

 

[mwilson]

What exactly failed on the two turbos??? Same failure each time??



Break the shaft??? Cold wheel or hot wheel side??? Massive oil leak??



Mike.

 

[Jeff Knight]

What brand of oil filters are being used?

 

[fox]

What brand of oil filters are being used?

Good point!!

Maybe it has been ''FRAM''ed!!!!

 

[pwerwagn]

In the filter head there are two bypass valves. One is an oil filter bypass for when the oil is to heavy or thick to pass through the oil filter cold. The second is a pressure REGULATING valve. When the oil pressure gets to high this valve opens and dumps the oil back into the pan bypassing the engine. (like a really cold engine) It sounds like this valve is sticking open and dumping the oil and taking out the turbo. Like said the oil pressure sender is just a switch or JOKE. Put a real gauge on it. The pressure Regulating valve is on the front side of the oil filter head. It's the 17mm or 19 mm plug head. It's just a spring and plunger. Take it out and clean and polish the plunger. Make sure the O-Ring is in real good shape.

Thats EXACTLY the info I was looking for. Thanks!! Ill check that first.

What weight oil is he using? Based on your trouble shooting, it only happens when it is cold out and when the engine heater is not used. 15/40 will not flow very well at 0* especially at any rpm above an idle.



Nick

15/40... But so do I and I don't have any problems?

Reports of Cummins ISB oil pump failures, even crankshaft and bearing failures, are uncommon.



We know that Cummins and Dodge are so confident they use a dummy oil pressure indicator in the dash that displays computer simulation not oil pressure to make drivers feel good.



I would look elsewhere for the cause.

Yeah, I dont think its the pump either. Just seems tooooooo unlikely?

What exactly failed on the two turbos??? Same failure each time??



Break the shaft??? Cold wheel or hot wheel side??? Massive oil leak??



Mike.

Cartridge on both. No shaft breakage. Both went from being "fine", to the wheels rubbing the housings slightly afterward. Neither broke a shaft. The 341 actually looks to have touched the housing for a second and rubbed, then stuffed itself into the housing and came to a dead stop. Both have done similar games while he is pulling out of his driveway, not even on a paved road yet.

What brand of oil filters are being used?

Fleetguard/Mopar...

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Shutting off the engine while egt is quite hot? Maybe starved for oil and when cold the new oil is too thick to get to the bearings soon enough.

 

[pwerwagn]

Shutting off the engine while egt is quite hot? Maybe starved for oil and when cold the new oil is too thick to get to the bearings soon enough.

I think that is a definite possibility Joe. I got your email and replied too, BTW.



Ill give the check valves a once over, and Ill make sure there is no debris in the feed or return. Aside from that, I think it will probably come down to him treating it right.

 

[mwilson]

I think that is a definite possibility Joe. I got your email and replied too, BTW.



Ill give the check valves a once over, and Ill make sure there is no debris in the feed or return. Aside from that, I think it will probably come down to him treating it right.

Has he had the truck since new???



Has the truck accumulated all its miles there in your area???



I am getting hung up on the fact that the OEM turbo was still good when he removed it at 80,000 miles and assuming he drives it the same way that he always has.



The starvation theory is good, but why would the first one last so long???



Mike.