OK if Submarines and Locomotives can do it WHY

[hammersley]

can't we duplicate that for all vehicles as in intermediate step ???



OK - I mean in all the alternative fuel vehicles it appears that NOBODY is seriously Just Considering --



1. A Small Engine

2. Attach to a generator

3. Have electric motors at the wheels... .



NO other DRIVETRAIN - simple and a whole lot more effective... . you could have unlimited traction whenever you wanted it and a whole lot more efficient than what we have now... ... thoughts?????

 

[DValentine]

Funny you mentioned it. I was talking about this very thing with a guy tonight. I think it would work wonders. The engine could run at a constant, efficient rpm.

Torque by the numbers with the electric motor.

Hello big three... ... any one home?????

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

That's what hybrids are. While the engines are capable of directly driving the wheels (especially in the Hondas) they are gas engines that run at their most efficient RPMs and electric motors driving the wheels. The Toyota/Lexus hybrids don't have transmissions at all. Just the Motor-gears driving the wheels. Others are built the same way.

Joe

 

[hammersley]

What a second

That's what hybrids are. While the engines are capable of directly driving the wheels (especially in the Hondas) they are gas engines that run at their most efficient RPMs and electric motors driving the wheels. The Toyota/Lexus hybrids don't have transmissions at all. Just the Motor-gears driving the wheels. Others are built the same way.

Joe

I thought Hybrids are like this.....



from here... .



How Do Hybrid Cars Work



A hybrid car has the parts of both the fuel-driven and the electric vehicle, including fuel tank, gas engine, battery pack, generator, and transmission. Some differences include the gas engine which is smaller on hybrid cars, and developed for more efficiency and emitting less harmful gases to the environment. Transmissions can be constructed so differently in some hybrids, but with the same basic purpose.



The one item a hybrid has that neither the electric nor the conventional car have is the generator. The generator on a hybrid is used to produce electricity, making the hybrid more efficient than an electric car because it does not have to stop to charge up.

The part that distinguishes a hybrid from the electric and the conventional car is the generator. This generator produces electricity, which makes the hybrid car more efficient than the electric car because there is not need to stop just to recharge.



I mean they still have duplicative systems... . and drivetrains... afterall it still uses the engine to drive it when the batteries aren't sufficient... . I say eliminate the batteries -- and just run 100 % on electricity generated from the engine - AND NO TRADITIONAL RUNNING GEAR -



No Axles

No Differentials

No Transmissions

No Transfer Case

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've often thought the same thing - a specially designed, efficient engine specifically made to operate with maximum efficiency at one speed and power output, operating into a matched alternator designed the same way - all the actual drivetrain powered electrically, without the added gadgets and gizmos for "alternate" mechanical power.



Sure looks like it should have good potential...

 

[jwgary]

My senior design project in college was to design a powertrain for an unmanned vehicle. We started with something about the size of a 4-wheeler and went through the trade study of what would make the most sense for stealth, range, and capability. We settled on two different configurations. One was an all electric version that could go around 50 km. We had a skid of batteries that could be removed and replaced
with an off the shelf diesel APU to double the range (keeping two batteries for a buffer). We did sacrifice silent running with the APU, but we were lighter and had much greater range. Independent wheel motors made for great handling in any terrain as well. I just wish that the automakers would go this route instead of the M/G hooked right in line with a conventional powertrain.

 

[TRLRTRSH]

I believe Ford and GMC both had EV pickup trucks back in the late 90's to the early 2000 model years. Do a search.
I still think it's feasible to have an electric Dodge 3500 capable of towing 22k at 60 mph for 500 miles. WE AS AMERICANS need to tell the government to get the heck *&^% out of the way and turn the industry loose, go for it!!

 

[AKaiser]

The U. S. Army was actually experimenting with tanks to run like this during WWII, but decided against it due to concerns about training maintenance personnel to deal with the electric drive system. Medium Tank T23

 

[TRLRTRSH]

Very interesting about the T23, learn something everyday from this group.

 

[GaryOwen]

Chevy Volt tentatively scheduled for debut at end of 2010.

 

[EricBu12]

I was thinking about this Idea.

Take the driveshaft for the front axle off, attach a good size motor to the front of the transfer case, put the Tc in 4 high all the time so the motor can turn the yoke.

Have a few heavy duty batteries in the bed and use a "Throttle" inside the cab for the motor. The Engine can use the transmission to help the electric or just be in Neutral when cruising on the freeway, and let the electric motor keep momentum going all the time. The Engine can rev up at 1200 RPM via the high Idler from Genos. . Seems like I could get a big increase in mileage.

Only thing is I dont know where I could get such a motor to run and to hook to the yoke on the transfercase.

 

[Soot4Life]

If I recall correctly electric motors produce their greatest torque @ almost 0 RPM so it would be one heck of a hauler for getting a monster load underway easily. If AC motors were used that would do away with the maintainance needed by the DC units. It's certainly plausible that Big Oil is sabotaging progress on electric vehicles by buying patents, etc. to slow the conversion from profitable fossil fuels to more efficient & less profitable electric systems. If I put myself in Big Oil's shoes I would be doing everything I could to stop a non-petroleum based technology from replacing my proven mega-profitable technology. If my logic is wrong please enlighten me. Is the weakness still in the batteries running out of juice too quickly?

 

[Mhannink]

this has been my idea for years ive got most of the plans thought out just need the cash.



one things you guys will like to hear is cat has done this exact thing on their brand new d7's they arent out yet but will be they are proving to be very very effiecent and very powerful parts that could handle the mechanical drive train arent holding up to the new torquey electric motors.

 

[MA2LA]

I have been thinking of this for awhile and my just break down and do it sooner than later. I figure a small 40hp diesel can run on not much more than 2gals an hour at most if not less and that is if you need it to run full time.

 

[AABEN]

Have any one seen the new Jeep concept car. It is using a small diesel eng made by Mercedes-Benz it is called bluetec With electric motors they are talking about 200 miles. IT is in the Diesel Builder April 2008 page 6-8-9 . It was in one other book . I dont remember its name ---BEN

 

[TAbbott]

One thing to remember is that every time you change the energy from one form to another, you lose a bit. I seem to recall a story about locomotives, which operate on the system being discussed in this thread, where it was stated that it required 250 hp from the diesel just to excite the electrics before they put out anything.



As a percentage of the total available power, that was only about 5%, but if you take that hit to begin with, it's possible that the efficiencies just aren't there.

 

[CumminSense]

My un-expert ramblings:



1) keep in mind that one of the problems to be overcome for a "home built" hybrid arrangement is the control (throttling) of the electirc motors. If you have a constant voltage coming from a generator (rectified AC current to approximate DC current), then DC motors are difficult to throttle without fancy electronics, because DC voltage is not easy to transform to varying voltages. One method is to "chop" the current -- provide pulses to the motor of varying time periods but same voltage. But this has disadvantages (I don't recall exactly -- I think for one thing it's hard on the motor / reduces service life).



2) hammersley, your quote on how hybrids work: I disagree with the "generator providing current is more efficient" (paraphrased) part or the quote (I know it's not your words). The on-board generator is more *convenient*, because it charges the batts more or less constantly, no one wants to stop and wait for 4 hours at a rest stop while their batteries charge up from grid power. But the gas engine / generator is not more efficient, in my opinion. If it was, we'd all provide our own electricity at home with gasoline generators and say screw the utility! Granted, grid electric power is notoriously inefficient also (I forgot the numbers, but I think it's like 15% efficient, by the time the electrons reach your house, considering thermodynamic losses at the plant and transmission losses over the power lines).



3) whoever suggested just using their full-size engine and put electric motors in-line: one of the main features of hydrids is that you can shrink the gas (or diesel) engine way down, because the electric motors can "take up the slack" during high power demand times like climbing hills and accelerating away from traffic lights. By shrinking the engine, you lighten the vehice significantly (although battery weight offsets the savings), which increases mpg, and the engine can then run at ideal throttle (generally high efficiency) for most of the time it is running. Keeping a large engine and putting it in a hydrid system won't be ideal.



4) one of the reasons trains use diesel - electric hybrid system is the tremendous amount of torque the elect motors produce at 0 speed (as someone pointed out on this thread). Quite an advantage for getting a train's huge mass going from dead stop. Plus trains don't have to stop-and-go at traffic lights like cars do, so no need for batteries on the hybrid system on trains to give that extra acceleration boost. No "dragster locomotives" out there, as far as I know (cool thought, though!).

 

[Forrest Nearing]

what does your average submarine or locomotive weigh?

 

[nickleinonen]

what does your average submarine or locomotive weigh?

not sure about the subs, but the new breed of locomotives roll in at over 400,000lbs... the engines in these new ones are rated at 4500hp and give between 4300-4400hp available for the traction motors

 

[PToombs]

I like the submarine idea better. Nuclear reactor driving a steam turbine. The only problem I can see is the fact that when you get home late, the glow might wake up your wife!