OK - why NOT an electric Pickup?????

[hammersley]

Hear me out... ... . won't happen today BUT why not... ...



if we removed the Heavy Cummins drivetrain (meaning a manufacture ) saving at least 1500 lbs - we could replace that with an electric drive - TOTAL not HYBRID!!!! You have a vehicle that you could put another 1500 additional lbs of batteries... ... couldn't we have (with new lithium batteries) a range of say 200-250+ miles????? If so that would do about 95% of what most people need... ...



FOR example.....



Israeli engineers have developed an exchangeable zinc-air battery with a range of 300 to 400 miles that is being tested in Europe for use in vans and other large vehicles. Europeans also have had exchangeable lead-acid batteries for years, Heitner says. In an automobile, however, "a battery is too much wrapped up by the vehicle to do that easily. "



So with our rigs - one could use a foot or two of the bed ----and with some redesign..... we could be giving the BIG FINGER to BIG OIL!!!!!

 

[Gonzo 1066]

One of the problems of the pure electric vehicle that most people ignore is the fact that you still need a power input. Often times this is just a matter of locating a coal plant out of your sight. Example: Southern California gets power from a coal plant in New Mexico, out or the valley and out of thier sight. When you figure the generation and transmission losses before it gets to your plug, liquid fuel seems cheap. However this is a immideate way to burn coal in your commuter vehicle. IMHO

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Until recently, lots of deluded folks thought we could replace our need for crude oil based fuels simply by use of agricultural alternatives such a corn and soy - that delusion has finally evaporated in the light of reality and better knowledge of the sheer volume of oil we use, and the impossibility of replacing more than a small percentage of that volume by use of renewable base materials.



In the case of use of electricity in the volume sufficient to significantly reduce usage of fossil fuels, lets not again delude ourselves! While it's to our advantage to explore as many energy alternatives as possible, we'd have to be pretty uninformed and ignorant to not recognize that our electrical energy grid is as close to the breaking point as our vehicle fuel supply is. :{



SO, IF we converted enough vehicles over to electrical power in volume enough to put a REAL dent into crude oil imports, where will the equivelant electricity power COME from - and at what cost?

 

[EKlem]

You are essentially correct. Pickup trucks are actually very popular to convert to electric because of their ability to take the weight of the batteries and the ease of mounting to their frame rails. However, since their aerodynamics are so poor, they are unpopular for their range. I have personally worked on the conversion of a ford ranger and a half ton chevy to battery electric as well as build an electrathon racer.



There are two technical problems that plague the development of electric cars. One is cost. Batteries are very expensive and controllers, chargers, motors, and all the cabling isn't cheap either. The other big problem is range. Range is all about getting your battery weight/total weight up. Unfortunately, this also decreases your efficiency a little because you are hauling around more weight. There are batteries out there that are starting to be able to store a lot of energy for a given weight but they are unbelievably expensive. Regular old lead acids really take a beating well and are cheap but they are heavy. A 1500lb battery pack for a 3/4 ton truck wouldn't get it very far even with the most state of the art batteries. The Ranger that we converted runs 1900lbs of lead acid batteries and our range record is 120miles.



The real problem with range on EV's is the recharge time. A range of 150 miles wouldn't be terrible if the recharge took 30 seconds but it will take 3hrs if you are lucky(can plug into a powerful enough circuit). Having batteries that can be swapped out is very difficult because they would all need to be identical and getting them in and out of the vehicle would take some creative engineering. This is where the fuel cell comes in. The advantage of a fuel cell over a battery is that the energy is stored in hydrogen which can be transferred faster than electricity so you can recharge the car more quickly.



In reality, most people's commutes are short enough that an EV would be great. If you assume that every household has two cars, it would be great if one was an electric and the other was a biodiesel vehicle or something like that.



There is a good archive of EV's at

AustinEV: the Austin Area Electric Auto Association

 

[EKlem]

Regarding the comments about power source, it is a problem, but not as bad as you are making it sound. Regarding the load on the grid, most charging would be done at non peak hours so the increase to peak would be minimal. What I do is to use a timer which automatically runs the charger in the middle of the night. I think that the bigger issue is whether the power sources for the grid could keep up. Eventually, we will be forced to diversify our power sources and spread them out. The first place to start would be conserving energy. When we were dealing with national grid to get the solar system on my parents' house approved, they were shocked to see that our bill averaged under 250kwh/month when most bills were over 750. They use the house basically the same as everyone else and have all the appliciances that everyone else has. It simply comes down to the fact that we turn off the lights when we leave a room, use compact flourescents, and look at the power usage when buying appliances. By finding a way to get people to conserve electricity(this is the really hard part) and charging during non peak hours, EV's don't present an enormous problem for the grid.

From an environmental standpoint, even though the grid represents dirty power, it is still much cleaner than an internal combustion engine. You have to look at the total life cycle of each type of fuel from mining or extraction by well to the refining, to the combustion, and to the disposal. Last time I ran the numbers, charging our Ranger with electricity produced by coal, it was 3 times more efficient than burning gasoline. Also, the emissions is significantly less. If you can charge by an alternative fuel source, it gets even better.

Everyone couldn't switch to driving electrics right now or the power distribution network couldn't handle it but having a large percentage of electric vehicles in the future is certainly doable. The government is counting on it with all of the investment into fuel cells which need hydrogen which is produced by splitting water with electricity.

 

[Skydiver]

I am ready for a total electric commuter.



I drive 28. 5 miles each way to work and with a 75 mile range I could recharge it at work.



It's only a matter of time before someone markets a vehicle that will take us off oil.



As far as hydrogen, I work at a water treatment plant on the Chattahoochee river. Water level is getting lower by the minute around here. Our largest 2 lakes, Lake Martin and Lake West point are at record low levels. If it doesn't rain soon I wouldn't be seen around the Atlanta area. We have had no rain for 18 days and the forcast shows non for the next 7 days. We've had < 3 inches of rain in 3 mos. The water systems (At least non around me) are not ready for a major increase in demand unless it rained often as then the demand drops significantly. I would love to have a hydrogen powered vehicle.



I have said for years now that the largest war our country will ever have will be over water. People get crazy when the water stops coming out of the wall. ie. The ice storm we had in the late 80's and Huricane Opal took out our plants power. Our phone did not stop ringing. "How am I going to use the restroom" was our #1 ?



If this were a peaceful world we all could have a nuclear power plant the size of a coffee maker at home and get off the grid.



Don't get me started talking about water.

I am ready for an electric ride !!

 

[TRLRTRSH]

How about diesel/electric, like a locomotive? I believe General Motors was working on one, at one time anyway.

 

[jwgary]

How about diesel/electric, like a locomotive? I believe General Motors was working on one, at one time anyway.

I think the best solution is diesel/electric or gas turbine/electric to get you good distance, fast refueling and economy. Get rid of all the mechanical losses and weight of the drivetrain and use individual wheel motors. This was the setup we decided on when I was in school doing a project to spec out a drivetrain for an unmanned vehicle for the military. We had an all battery "silent" version and then one that replaced all the batteries except for two with an off the shelf APU and doubled the range. When an engine can run 100% of the time at it's maximum efficiency instead of stop and go your overall efficiency will increase. Just look at your instantaneous mileage when you are on the freeway compared to the average over the whole tank.

 

[RJWEST]

Battery powered Truck ??? Think not.

My DeWalt drill needs new batteries,
Battery cost more than a new drill.

 

[TRLRTRSH]

Xebra PK is the Electric Pickup Truck Provided by ZAP! of Concord, Concord Area's Only Smart Car Dealer



Well the idea is good, just needs a little refining would be a little overgross pulling the 5er:-laf:-laf



I still think the auto industry could build a diesel electric on the lines of a locomotive that would allow for ample range and payload to pull a big 5th wheel.

 

[Skydiver]

What reason did the locomotive industry chose a diesel/electric over a diesel with conventional type transmission.

I would guess it is because of the high torque a series wound commutator motor will deliver and the ability to handle the weight as well. I spoke with a conductor recently and he said they must watch the amp meter when pulling a grade as not to overheat the motors.

I just wish I had never sold my 81 rabbit LS.

 

[DJW]

Gary brought the whole discussion down to earth, (building Castles in the Sky?) for any fuel to date, other than a petroleum derived one. In general modern road transportation started on petroleum, which was a problem fluid left over from lamp oil production, and regardless of this and that, the whole problem of PERSONAL transportation is going to emerge in the future. In the 1930s in Britain there were Electric powered vehicles, from milk delivery to garbage trucks. Garbage trucks were proper Banshees, instant acceleration and stopping on a Farthing (1/4 of a Penny) not forgetting in those days gasoline fueled vehicles had everything except power, many older people probably remember the days when a truck had to back up a steep slope with a load to be able to deliver it, as that was the lowest gear available. In Canada 1954, a plant I worked at, all the forklifts were electric, either from insurance, no flamible fuels, or poisonous fumes or just plain economics. Of electric powered personal vehicles, the difference to one person in a block with one, to many in the whole block using them, many electrical black-outs sure to occur, many plants can't even keep up with heavy household use today. Let's talk economics, once there was a firm that used to sell squares of cut-offs practically for freight, (cheaper than dumping) many found them useful to cover garden sheds, the demand became so intense that the firm cut whole sheets then charged accordingly. Create a demand and the cost will rise accordingly. Many comodities are kept to a low production to enhance price. After all, Business is Business. (as the French girls used to say)

 

[EKlem]

The reason for using a diesel electric in a locomotive is the ability of it to get the load moving. Electric motors produce incredible torque at no rpm so no clutch is needed. AC motors don't have as high a torque peak but it is more constant with relation to rpm. DC motors produce max torque at zero rpm then it decreases as the back emf increases.

In large ships, there are a few more reasons that they use diesel electrics. For ships with fixed props, the easiest way to deal with the transmission issue is to just use an electric motor instead. Additionally, if the hull is fine, there often isn't room for a large diesel and it frees up the design a lot to be able to locate the diesel somewhere else. The last reason is that by having multiple smaller diesels, they can be taken off line one at a time for maintenance.

If you can get away with a straight electric, it is much preferable to running a hybrid. Electrics make great commuter vehicles. Since most households have two vehicles, having one electric for commuting and one hybrid or diesel for going long distances would be optimal at this point in time. Since electrics excel at commuting not towing cross country, this is the reason why the focus is not on pickups which are not the best for commuting. The electric could pull the 5ver but it wouldn't make it too far before having to plug in.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

batteries are heavy.



true story

 

[Tom W]

Back in the late fifties there was a man in S. C. that converted a big old Chrysler to run on hydraulic motors. He had a small gas engine and a storage tank. When he slowed or was going down hill the hydraulic motors would restore hydraulic pressure. I think he was able to get about 30mpg, I don't know what ever became of the idea but maybe it has some merit. Anybody remember anything like that?

 

[brods]

Back in the late fifties there was a man in S. C. that converted a big old Chrysler to run on hydraulic motors. He had a small gas engine and a storage tank. When he slowed or was going down hill the hydraulic motors would restore hydraulic pressure. I think he was able to get about 30mpg, I don't know what ever became of the idea but maybe it has some merit. Anybody remember anything like that?

Iirc in the mid 90's I read an article in some engineering mag where GM had outfitted a pickup with a regenerative braking system. Something like a 6,000 psi accumulator under the truck which stored energy during braking and gave it back during acceleration.



Total electric... nah. Diesel electric hybrid, maybe.

 

[Mhannink]

ive been nursing the idea of a diesel electric truck. traction motors on the wheels and a genset where the transmission is. add with that regenitive braking and i think the idea would be good.



my theory behind it is diesel love to run at load put them at the peak power point and run them there all the time and they do a lot of work for little fuel. take that idea and let and the engine run at say 1600rpm with the generator putting out max power at the point. with high torque electric motors at the wheels i would think it would be a rather fuel efficent vehical. regen braking and it will help recharge the batteries too.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

The diesel electric subject reminds me of one experimental vehicle several years ago that operated as a hybrid but charged batteries off a small turbine running at a constant load/RPM to maximize efficiency. It ran on diesel & achieved ~80mpg for a Taurus-sized sedan. Not sure whatever became of it.

 

[Dl5treez]

I think the best solution is diesel/electric or gas turbine/electric to get you good distance, fast refueling and economy. Get rid of all the mechanical losses and weight of the drivetrain and use individual wheel motors. This was the setup we decided on when I was in school doing a project to spec out a drivetrain for an unmanned vehicle for the military. We had an all battery "silent" version and then one that replaced all the batteries except for two with an off the shelf APU and doubled the range. When an engine can run 100% of the time at it's maximum efficiency instead of stop and go your overall efficiency will increase. Just look at your instantaneous mileage when you are on the freeway compared to the average over the whole tank.

I've always wanted to build a pickup truck using electric wheel motors. Use the current to power and to brake, no need for lockers or limited slips, etc.



It could be made and be really cool. Use a 4cyl diesel engine to power a generator, mount them longitudinal like a typical engine/transmission.



If I had a million dollars to make a prototype... ... .

 

[hammersley]

INteresting stuff guys BUT I still

want to eliminate the engine fom the entire equation - COMPLETELY - No PONY engine - No $$$ and maintenance associated with owing an internal combustion engine - can you imagine No Oil/Fuel Filter Changes - No Fuel - well you get the picture and OPEC and Big Oil could KMA!!!!



Trust me - that will be the future!!! And if you want to make Bill Gates look POOR - make it happen!!!! Somebody will.....