Overheard: New Low Sulphur Fuel May Kill Fuel System

[SHyans]

I may be yelling that the sky is falling BUT I am very interested to hear other opinions on the following... .

I just returned form my local diesel shop to add some more toys to the money pit. While I waited for the work to be done I sat in on a conversation between the shop owner and another customer.

Here's what was said:

The owner of this shop was at a Bosch dealer meeting and basically one of the head honchos at Bosch told the attendees that within 10,000 miles the new fuel is going to destroy the fuel systems on our diesel trucks.

The reason as it was explained to him is that in order to remove sulphur from the diesel fuel, hydrogen is added. The hydrogen also removes the lubricants from the fuel and the oil companies are not going to do anything about replacing it unless someone tells them to do so. The theory is that the oil companies are recognizing that this is a way to increase sales on fuel additives.

When I asked about what the meant to DC when all these trucks are coming in for bad injectors, he said Bosch told them that they were going to deny liaibility and DC is going to be stuck with millions of dollars of warranty issues.

Comments? Anyone?

 

[Big MAK]

It's not a conspiracy at the Oil Companies, or Bosch, or DC.



Low sulfer (and unleaded for that matter in gassers, and new other requirements -- like Cali fuel) are all decreasing lubricity of fuels and this trend has been the case for years. Thank your local tree hugger. It's gotten out of hand the last few years since the "environmentally friendly" additives are more toxic then the fuel they're replacing. . LOL... but that's another subject.



back to the topic...



The decreased lubricity due to enviro regs is just a fact of life and we all should be using some additives to protect our fuel systems. No conspiracy; only legislative stupidity. jmo.

 

[jjdiesel]

The Ultra Low Sulphur has been on the horizon for years... our engines were built with the properties of said fuel in mind. Still, the effects of at least the first few batches may or may not cause some problems. . the use of the 2 micron fuel filter after the stock filter is a good idea... imho

 

[KParsons]

fuel lab

my friend tom has a fuel lab he has said, that 99. 9 no fuel problems on new trucks. there is so many diff. components in the fuel most people have no idea of the compex nature of the fuel and refining. kp 2cents

 

[SDalgleish]

The new ULSF has been in use on the West coast for over a year now (read your TDR) and everything is working just fine. Cummins talked about this a May Madness this year, bottom line is the fuel system is designed for the new ULSF. John Holmes did say that when they made the switch in Nevada the ULSF was cleaning lots of gunk out of the stations and pumps. Some of their customers had to change fuel filters several times on a shorter maintenance schedule, but bottom line was all is good.

 

[bbecker]

I have heard all of these rumors before when diesel industry changed over to low sulphur,fuel lines deteriorating,pumps locking up, seals in fuel pumps drying out, injectors galling, ETC. We didn't have any problems with the change over then.

ULSF may show some inadequecies in older fuel systems that are on the edge of needing repair right now, but I wouldn't worry about it. I go through about 5000 gal. a month in all of our equipment, only precautions I'm going to make is to carry some extra fuel filters and wait to see what happens .

 

[rbattelle]

If you can find it, as little as 2% biodiesel blend will replace any lost lubricity from sulphur removal.



-Ryan

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Just a thought...



The 89-93 trucks used a VE pump pretty similar mechanically to the VP's, and pretty rare failure rate with the high sulphur diesel used during those years - same with the later trucks using the P-7100's.



Then came reduced sulphur fuel - about the same time we got the VP pumps, and failures climbed dramatically. Of course, quite a few more of the later trucks were made and sold, so failure rates on the older style pumps a bit harder to track in an accurate perspective for comparison.



So if a VE or 7100 was commonly good for 250K miles, and a VP or CR type only good for 150K, with significant injector failures tossed in for good measure - do we chalk it up to poorer design and engineering - or does fuel composition play a part?

 

[cerberusiam]

my friend tom has a fuel lab he has said, that 99. 9 no fuel problems on new trucks. there is so many diff. components in the fuel most people have no idea of the compex nature of the fuel and refining.

Huh??

The new ULSF has been in use on the West coast for over a year now (read your TDR) and everything is working just fine.

I find that hard to believe due to the thousands of pumps marked "Do not use in 2007 or newer diesel vehicles" that started showing up a couple of months ago.



Who knows, maybe CA was the test bed to see if it would work. :-laf :-laf

When I asked about what the meant to DC when all these trucks are coming in for bad injectors, he said Bosch told them that they were going to deny liaibility and DC is going to be stuck with millions of dollars of warranty issues.

Now THAT I really, really find hard to swallow. Consider this; a fuel system designed in Europe to run on European diesel, which is already ULSD, is not going to be able to handle ULSD fuel. Hmmm, sounds like there is a lot of posturing going on on both sides of the fence.

The 89-93 trucks used a VE pump pretty similar mechanically to the VP's, and pretty rare failure rate with the high sulphur diesel used during those years - same with the later trucks using the P-7100's.

They have a pretty rare failure rate at STOCK settings on the newer fuel also. Considering the VP had injection pressures 4 and 5 times the ealier pumps, more HP, and a fuel delivery system that wasn't any better than the early ones, and the P-pump was oil lubed and cooled, there were probably more failures. I have a hard time believing the fuel was anything but a minor contributory factor, if that.





The only question left unanswered is whether the refiners can and will deliver a usable product for less than $6 a gallon. Its all gonna boil down to cost and profit margin.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The only question left unanswered is whether the refiners can and will deliver a usable product for less than $6 a gallon. Its all gonna boil down to cost and profit margin.

Lets all hear a big AMEN! to that one!

 

[jmtandem]

your information is inconsistent with everything else said about the new diesel fuel. Basically the new engines cannot run on the existing 500 ppm diesel due to their emissions equip. ; however, existing engines can work on the new 15 ppm new diesel. I went through this when I had a first gen (91. 5) and the new then lower sulpher diesel was introduced. Everybody said that seals would fail, diesel would leak from every seam, puddles would accumulate under the truck, etc. In 140,000 miles it did not happen. If you are worried use an additive.

 

[JHMiller]

Yep, Bad Legislation and then there is NO legislation

Big Mak, your hit the nail on the head, use something good.

However with the use of diesel fuel I've found there are very little requirements as to the quality of the product. I understand the refineries have discovered they can ship moisture (due to the lack of product requirements) with the diesel and they don't need to pay to have a hazardous byproduct hauled off. Diesel is the crud product, least refining, and we're paying way too much for this junk. We need a product quality that is consistant with the price we're paying. Profits are greater on diesel, due to the lack of processing compared to gas. Ya know, it is kerosene.

Press your Representative for tighter controls on this very costly product, it's great demand should also demand a great product.

john

 

[Lube Man]

It is my understanding that B5 replaces all the lubricity taken out of the ULSF. B5 has no noticeable effect on performance. I am also lead to believe that many states are mandating the sale of B5 (particularly those in the mid west (farm lobby?)).



Since B5 also significantly lowers emissions, I would hope that more states mandate the use of biodiesel. It Also makes us less dependent on terrorist petro!!!!

 

[BHolm]

Fact is California has been selling only the ULSD with 15 ppm sulfer for quite some time, it was a test area like they are for most opressive emissions type laws



The ULSD diesel here is also cleaner than the euro ULSD, ours is 15 ppm, theirs is 50 ppm. We are on the verge of having the "cleanest" diesel in the world.



I have an old diesel in my MB Unimog truck. That is a 1971 model with nearly 11,000 hours on the engine. It was certainly designed back when sulfer and lubricity were much higher. It starts and runs to this day with no issues and no leaks. The new ULSD doesn't worry me a bit.

 

[bzingre]

ULSD is 15ppm sulfur down from max 500ppm pre 07. Processing ULSF removes lubricity from the fuel. Manufactures are required to replace with additive to restore lubricity specifications. ULSF will hit the market Oct. 06 with to make sure ULSF is 15ppm in the pipeline and at distributors by Jan 1, 2007. Very old engines (pre 1988) may need extra additive to retain seal integrity. Otherwise, there should be no effect on current product. Only negative will be lower BTU content of ULSF (-1% to -5%, suppliers say). It will be critical to maintain fuel filters during the transition as ULSF tends to "scrub" the distribution channel (i. e. pipeline, bulk tanks). You may want to change fuel filters every service for 6 months instead of every other service. For me that means every 7,500 miles. We have been recommending this to our On-Highway engine users as a contingency. Don't be afraid of ULSF, currently there is not a large cost differenct in the Mid-South (<. 10/gal). Maybe demand will drive higher prices, but time will tell

 

[Big Sur]

Some states currently mandate a small percentage of biodiesel (2%) in every gallon of petro-diesel; others are working on it, and others still have their head in the sand. Biodiesel is a beautiful lubricity additive.